Search found 17 matches

by gemini
Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:53 am
Forum: LEO Contacts & Bloopers
Topic: Shot Fired
Replies: 82
Views: 11521

Re: Shot Fired

Purplehood wrote:
gemini wrote:Purplehood wrote:
[I have followed this thread with interest and thought about replying more than I have a number of times, but kept my mouth shut.

Yes, the law states that one can legally do what the OP states that he has done.

So I have pondered this entire incident over and over and still come to the same conclusion. The BG was stopped in the middle of a commission of a crime and ran. I simply don't understand the need to attempt to shoot him. In my mind there is no such thing as a warning-shot. If one shoots at somebody, you are shooting to kill them. So I am not sure what the OP's intent was when he fired.

If this guy was surprised, turned around and made any single gesture, furtive movement or had flinched, I would have shot. But as I read this the BG "partially turned towards me", and thats it, he ran.

/I had to get this one off of my chest.]

Complete sentence from original post:

"He partially turned toward me, he had something in his hands, when he turned I couldn't tell if it was a knife, screwdriver or what and I immediately pulled my gun up and fired, from about waist high."


I appreciate your opinions and personal decisions on when to/when not to shoot. However, I was there, you were not. If you face a similar
event in the future, I'm sure whatever action or inaction you take will be the right decision for you, at THAT fraction of a second in time.
In that split second you will decide possible threat or no threat. Had I felt there was a continuing threat, I would have taken the 2nd shot,
and this whole event would have had a different outcome entirely.
I simply posted a true, factual event and the eventual outcome. For me it's past history. I don't dwell on it.
Does surprising a burglar in my brothers house while he was trying to frantically unplug a big-screen TV count? I walked up behind him, drew my weapon and watched him turn around. He still had one of the power-cords in his grubby-paws and raised them as if he were going to strike me with them. At that point he looked in my eyes to see who was going to flinch and determined that cord vs. .40 caliber is probably a losing proposition. He ran out the door without the TV. I did not fire.
As I stated earlier. I have thought about the scenario you present, and assuming that you are accurately reflecting what happened, it is my own opinion that you should not have shot from both a legal and a moral perspective.
I think too many people are ready to shoot when they shouldn't be. So I would have to say that I still disagree with you.

It is most unfortunate if this appears to be a personal attack. It is not. If you decide to post a true-life experience, you should be prepared for some feedback from people that indeed have been in the same-boat that you were.
I'm sure whatever decision you made at your brothers house was the right decision for you. At that time. In that place. Under those exact circumstances.
I was not trying to write a novel explaining every minute detail, but what I posted IS a accurate reflection of what happened.
The act of a BG breaking into a domicile to burglarize....... caught in the act. Legal to shoot? Did you slowly sneak up behind the TV bandit? Did you have time to make certain he was only unplugging a TV with no weapon present? I don't have enough information to even guess if your action or inaction was appropriate.
If my post made it appear I can't wait to blow someone away then I need work on my writing skills. What is legal and what is moral often conflict. I can't help you with making the shoot/don't shoot decision. Like others, you must make that decision for yourself.
I don't think your post is a personal attack. I have answered questions. I'm to a point where I will only agree to disagree.
by gemini
Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:24 pm
Forum: LEO Contacts & Bloopers
Topic: Shot Fired
Replies: 82
Views: 11521

Re: Shot Fired

I think you're upset that I don't agree with you. I have nothing to be upset about. Obviously, you know more about the smallest details of an event
at which you were not present than I do, or the police do, or the DA does. Interesting. You know that the available amount of ambient light was not adequate by knowing which porch lights were on, the beam spread and direction of my headlights etc. Amazing. You are more able to interpret correctly the criminal code than the currently commissioned officers that responded, or the DA, or a criminal defense attorney. Again, I applaud your knowledge.
As stated previously, this event is over. Post if you must, but I'll no longer respond.
by gemini
Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:16 pm
Forum: LEO Contacts & Bloopers
Topic: Shot Fired
Replies: 82
Views: 11521

Re: Shot Fired

speedsix wrote:...as kindly as I can put it...you messed up...you went into a situation where you couldn't see with a gun in your hand...without a light, you couldn't see well enough to see what, if anything, he had in his hand...coulda been a weapon or a car key ring...if your shot had hit him, you could have gone to prison...if we carry a gun, we MUST carry a good light...when the DA asks you in front of the Grand Jury..."I thought he had..." won't get it...it's not like he'd shot at you and then fled...then turned and extended his hand again...you had seen no weapon, suffered no threat...and BANG...it could have landed a good man in prison...and an unjustified shooting is not protected by Castle Doctrine against civil suit...I'm glad that it went like it did...but if you don't get a pocketable powerful light and keep it with you at night...next time could go poorly...the shot was not justified by law...nor would have been the second shot that you said would have been legal...there was no justification to shoot at all...especially in the back... this "theft" from auto doesn't make the deadly force list with the facts you gave us...and your future's on the line...


WOW....BANG!!!!! Why in the world do I disagree with most of the guys on this one??? You said yourself that you didn't know if there was a theft or vandalism going on...you never mentioned seeing anything gone from the truck or in the guy's hands as he fled...(where's the theft during the nighttime??? where's the "recovery attempt?") you can't tell a Grand Jury either that he had stolen anything or was fleeing with any property...so those two, hence the right to use force...are out...so where's the justification of force...much less deadly force...and did his turning as he fled threaten you and cause you fear? Why?
...work through the force and deadly force law with the facts as you gave them to us...how would you convince the Grand Jury that this young man should be dead...or even wounded??? We're on your side...nobody had any business in your son's truck in the night...what if he was sleeping off a drunk??? You have to be able to make a Grand Jury "be there"...see the danger, feel the fear, and understand why a reasonable man would have shot...work your way through PC 9:41..where's the dispossession? of what?he wasn't trespassing...he was fleeing---preventing is out...HE has terminated any trespass by fleeing...where's the tangible, moveable property??? you have to be able to show that 9:41 covers you before the right to deadly force kicks in (9:42(1) AND (2) and following...have we satisfied (1) yet??? I don't see how...

...are you outraged yet? work through it...can you convince a retired schoolteacher why you fired a shot? A lot to think about...you got the good ole boy treatment...they knew you were a good guy...he was a bad guy...he was wrong to be in the truck...we agree to that point...but no further...can you show in 9:31 why you used force???if you can't...stop reading at 9:32(1)

I'm being sincere, not sarcastic...
I'm not outraged over anything. I freely admit I am not a internet authority on any subject. Though many believe that once behind a keyboard and
using the anonymity the internet provides, they become this century's "Master Mind of I-Net" and their opinion is the only correct opinion. Briefly,
9:32 (2) key words "reasonably believes"
(A) to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force
9.41: key words "reasonably believes"
9.42: again, key words "reasonably believes"
9.42 (A) key words "to prevent"
9.42 (B) key words "to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately........"

If the term or use of Castle Doctrine is in Texas law, please provide that reference. Thanks.
I am not a lawyer. However, immediately after this incident I consulted a Board Certified Criminal Defense Lawyer.
No problem with my actions. I also spoke with officers on the scene. No problem. I also spoke with the ADA
that was handling this case. No problem. And if being a "Good Ol Boy" is suddenly not PC, then I must admit I'm
not PC.

For the last time, whatever you or anyone else decides to do in a similar situation, I hope that it turns out well. I wish
no one (including you ; not being sarcastic) makes the mistake of acting incorrectly OR failing to act and then suffering
the consequences.

One last thing. Can you direct me to the section of law that says a justifiable shoot is ONLY justified if the BG is shot
in the front while facing the actor? I can't seem to find any reference where the shooter is directed to only hit certain
parts of the body. Thanks.
by gemini
Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:23 am
Forum: LEO Contacts & Bloopers
Topic: Shot Fired
Replies: 82
Views: 11521

Re: Shot Fired

Purplehood wrote:
[I have followed this thread with interest and thought about replying more than I have a number of times, but kept my mouth shut.

Yes, the law states that one can legally do what the OP states that he has done.

So I have pondered this entire incident over and over and still come to the same conclusion. The BG was stopped in the middle of a commission of a crime and ran. I simply don't understand the need to attempt to shoot him. In my mind there is no such thing as a warning-shot. If one shoots at somebody, you are shooting to kill them. So I am not sure what the OP's intent was when he fired.

If this guy was surprised, turned around and made any single gesture, furtive movement or had flinched, I would have shot. But as I read this the BG "partially turned towards me", and thats it, he ran.

/I had to get this one off of my chest.]





Complete sentence from original post:

"He partially turned toward me, he had something in his hands, when he turned I couldn't tell if it was a knife, screwdriver or what and I immediately pulled my gun up and fired, from about waist high."


I appreciate your opinions and personal decisions on when to/when not to shoot. However, I was there, you were not. If you face a similar
event in the future, I'm sure whatever action or inaction you take will be the right decision for you, at THAT fraction of a second in time.
In that split second you will decide possible threat or no threat. Had I felt there was a continuing threat, I would have taken the 2nd shot,
and this whole event would have had a different outcome entirely.
I simply posted a true, factual event and the eventual outcome. For me it's past history. I don't dwell on it.
by gemini
Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:19 pm
Forum: LEO Contacts & Bloopers
Topic: Shot Fired
Replies: 82
Views: 11521

Re: Shot Fired

jimandyen wrote:I agree.
It's always a good thing to be aware of one's surroundings. Being relatively new to this (CHL and the laws)
and not having any formal training I had another question of gemini or anyone else in the know.

Gemini said he had "tunnel vision" on the bad guy during the incident. Is that good?
How do special training schools or police prepare for this?

I understand you have to be focused and there are a lot of what ifs.
(Ex...An accomplice, A helpful neighbor with his gun, background, bystanders etc.)
Again not trying to judge just understand.
:bigear:
Sorry, I have to make this quick because I have to go back to work. If you have time (maybe 5 seconds or more?)
you might start scanning your surroundings. A lot of variables involved in every situation. Inside, outside, time of day
or night, well lit, dark, multiple BG's, distance, available cover, your own abilities, your own training level, your own confidence
level, etc etc etc. All would play into your response.
by gemini
Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:02 pm
Forum: LEO Contacts & Bloopers
Topic: Shot Fired
Replies: 82
Views: 11521

Re: Shot Fired

jimandyen wrote:Thanks for the reply gemini. Just wondering. One fear I have if I was in that situation (or another similar) would be where the bullet ends up. My wife and I go over different bad guy situations and then change what the background would be to see if we would make the same decisions. I guess more training on my part would help but I wonder sometimes if I would hesitate because of that. Am I alone in these thoughts..?
I was shooting "uphill". Backstop was parkway grass, lawn terraces and sidewalk.I don't know if I can explain this, but, your mind or eye takes all this in..... meaning, you are totally concentrated on BG while still being aware of backstop or other movement in your focus field of vision. My shot was reflex in response to his action. And we're talking a decision being made from that info in a fraction of a second. As stated in OP; I was in low ready with one hand.
Had I had proper grip with pistol in ready position, I'm sure this event would have had an entirely different ending.

Continue training. Only you can decide under what scenario you will be willing to shoot / not shoot. (within the law)
by gemini
Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:48 am
Forum: LEO Contacts & Bloopers
Topic: Shot Fired
Replies: 82
Views: 11521

Re: Shot Fired

Combining replies to the last 4 posts:

Thanks guys. I'm hoping this was a 1 time event.

No, no one ever looked for the .45 slug. I have a good idea of the area to search, if I had a metal detector, but
even then, I'm not willing to spend any time looking. We did find the spent shell casing the next morning, and I threw
it in my brass bucket.
Stay cool.... heats on for today. Maybe 101 by 3:00pm.
by gemini
Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:15 pm
Forum: LEO Contacts & Bloopers
Topic: Shot Fired
Replies: 82
Views: 11521

Re: Shot Fired

The trial and sentencing were in June.

Update: I followed the BG through his arrest, bail, court announcements, trial / case before the judge. Verdict? =
NAOG (Non-Adjudication of Guilt / Agreed Plea). Sentence? = 5yr Probation, Court costs etc., Restitution, and
mandatory attendence/participation in Homeward Bound (2 yr session I think), and regular PO visits.
A violation of any of the terms will result in a mandatory 2 yr Tx DOC incarceration.

The judge in this particular criminal court has a history of sending offenders to drug rehab. Originally I thought
Homeward Bound was a "teen" camp where kids are flying through the woods on zip lines and climbing rope ladders. :confused5
I did call the DA's workroom, and the explanation was that Homeward Bound is a drug rehab program that requires
counseling, testing, sessions, and some form of rehab work (whatever that is).

Anyway, that's how this has worked out.

Hope everyone is staying cool in this heat and having a good summer.
by gemini
Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:41 am
Forum: LEO Contacts & Bloopers
Topic: Shot Fired
Replies: 82
Views: 11521

Re: Shot Fired

[quote="Heartland Patriot"]I don't think I would give chase UNLESS the BG had something VERY valuable of mine, or had injured one of my family, or seriously damaged my property.

It seems you've thought it out, and have decided under exactly what circumstances you are willing to defend your family and/or property.
That's great. As previously stated, I think everyone that carry's should have completed the mental process of when, where and under what circumstance.
The only other issues you might be overlooking; it happens VERY, VERY quickly, how will you know that your property has been seriously damaged (if you haven't had time to truly evaluate, dark/night time), one of your family has been injured (unless you are there or happen to walk in just as they get hurt), or even, if the BG is running away with something VERY valuable of yours (unless you can see in his pockets, or dark/night time)? You don't. And the BG isn't going to wait around for you to survey, evaluate, weigh a thousand different scenarios and then make some kind of decision.

Devil's advocate: You come home, night time, front door is kicked in etc., guy runs out the back. Do you give chase? It's apparent he's the one who kicked in the door. Do you run to check your VERY valuable possessions, run upstairs to to see if any family member has been harmed etc. Time is passing, the BG is fleeing a crime scene. You won't know what's been taken or who's been harmed, yet. Do you let him run or do you give chase?
Tough question. You must draw the line somewhere. And, in doing so, be able to live with the consequences or outcome.

I know what my response would be.
by gemini
Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:34 am
Forum: LEO Contacts & Bloopers
Topic: Shot Fired
Replies: 82
Views: 11521

Re: Shot Fired

KD5NRH wrote:
gemini wrote:1. Wearing a tuckable holster or a smart carry holster would have been completely
useless in this situation. (I am forced on occasion to use a tuckable).
Grab some cheap shirts and find someone who can do tailoring. See if they can shorten the sides to a happy medium than minimizes the fabric tucked behind the holster without letting your shirt untuck too easily.

Good idea. I'll look into it.
5. There was no shaking, no inability to operate controls ie safety etc. Sight picture was steady.
Do you remember seeing the rear sight? I've caught myself finding the front sight and getting it on target without having the rear sight in place on fast draw-and-fire practice.
Yes. There was ambient light available, but not enough to keep the night sights from glowing. Three dots in a row.
I had stopped, after getting off the first round while moving, to take deliberate aim.
by gemini
Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:41 am
Forum: LEO Contacts & Bloopers
Topic: Shot Fired
Replies: 82
Views: 11521

Re: Shot Fired

esxmarkc wrote:You'b better check this thread if you think it would have been ok to fire that second shot or even the first.

http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=25714

Here are some of the pertinent highlights:
Lemes told authorities he shot Glass after the 19-year-old turned and lunged at him as he was fleeing. He'd been trying to detain the intruder until police arrived, he said.
Lemes indicated at the time of the shooting that he was protecting himself, but prosecutors said Thursday they sought the indictment because he shot the unarmed man five times after Glass already had fled the house without any of the homeowner's belongings.
Texas law traditionally allows a homeowner to fire at an intruder if he believes it's the only way to protect his property, but prosecutors said Glass was empty-handed.
“In this instance, the trespass had been terminated,” she said. “The guy's running down the street and away. There was no gun found. There was no indication of deadly force being used against the defendant.”
austinrealitor makes a pretty good point. Certainly has me rethinking things.
Lots of variables between the above thread and my situation. I have not read a first hand account from Lemes so I really don't
know exactly what transpired. Again, you'll need to decide for yourself what line you will not allow others to cross. That's a personal
decision based on your individual personality, physical condition, experience,training,value system and interpretation of existing law.
I can't/won't advise you to empty your weapon or not to fire. I can tell you that if you have not already made the decision on exactly
what you are willing to do, or rather how you will respond to a threat; you'll be caught with your pants around your ankles. It happens
too fast for you to think, "gee, what are all my choices? I think i'll run through each and every scenario possible before I react".
I'm not trying to be sarcastic or a jerk. I'm telling you those thoughts won't even enter your mind. You will be keyed on the BG and
protecting yourself and your property. I'm sure whatever decision you eventually make will be the right one for you.
by gemini
Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:27 pm
Forum: LEO Contacts & Bloopers
Topic: Shot Fired
Replies: 82
Views: 11521

Re: Shot Fired

Section 9.42
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

section (3) ADDS other conditions which would allow deadly force. Difference between and/or.
by gemini
Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:20 pm
Forum: LEO Contacts & Bloopers
Topic: Shot Fired
Replies: 82
Views: 11521

Re: Shot Fired

KeithB: Thanks. I agree with what you posted. My point was to have thought out in advance
when, where and under what circumstances you're willing to jump through the legal hoops
involved AFTER the fact.

esxmarkc: As previously posted, and what should be covered extensively in any
CHL (Texas) class;

Sec. 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

I believe I could have fired the second shot, hit, and still been no-billed. Although I was angry, I
am glad I did not. If the guy had been running away with my Strat, '68 J-45, tools etc. then I would do
whatever was necessary to stop him. Each situation has a ton of variables.
Folks are wired different. Some are willing to call it in and be a good witness, some turn a blind eye,
others are willing to assist or become directly involved. I'm probably one of the later. Not trying to be
a hero. Just the difference in the way folks respond.
by gemini
Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:25 am
Forum: LEO Contacts & Bloopers
Topic: Shot Fired
Replies: 82
Views: 11521

Re: Shot Fired

I'll try to answer or comment on several things instead of trying to respond to each post.

Keith B: I agree. It will be more trouble, time and expense. However, I have thought long and hard
about when, where and under what circumstances I am willing to commit to pulling my weapon and
not hesitating to use it. I believe if you have a CHL, each and every person needs to think those
issues out, BEFORE carrying a weapon.In no way do I want my original post to appear flippant or that it was a spare of the
moment decision. It's what I was personally willing to "go to the mat" for. The decision was made
along time ago. Others may have different scenarios or levels of violation before they are willing to react.

Sawdust: Thank you Sir.

gigag04: No. I simply restated exactly what I told the 911 operator. Scenario and description of BG.
After crime scene finished with the car, a list of stolen items. The responding LEO's were pro citizen.
IF I had shot and hit, I would have still called 911 and said the same things, but I would refuse to be
interviewed, either at the scene or later, without my atty present.
I have a very good lawyer. Board Certified Criminal Defense atty that actually was the one that helped me year
before last to put pressure on the State Fair of Texas (different thread). Former felony prosecutor, pro 2nd A.
We have discussed in detail exactly what to say, not to say, under dire circumstances. Basically to shut up.
by gemini
Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:41 pm
Forum: LEO Contacts & Bloopers
Topic: Shot Fired
Replies: 82
Views: 11521

Re: Shot Fired

I was using a IWB holster. Nick Matthews leather maker. I had on a untucked T-shirt.
City was Dallas, with DPD responding. My street, which I will not be posting.

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