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03Lightningrocks wrote:

wgoforth wrote:I will TRY to clear this once again. YES, I know the law on this...this isn't a typical case of a store improperly posting. I have snickered at many improper postings as I kept walking...This is a case where the store AND the LEO's who provide the security were claiming it to be a "no gun zone." With that in mind, I did not wish to risk an LEO asking "can I see in your pouch" (pocket, fanny pack, etc). YES, I could get off...but not until I have taken a ride and hired a lawyer since even the LEO's were misinformed. Had a 30.06 gone up instead, I am convinced that in this small town there would have been such an outcry they would have been forced to remove it. As I have said before, if I had the attitude of letting people get away with wrong thoughts and actions, I should never have become a gospel preacher. I decided to risk that educating them would help them act properly...and it did. I only jumped back in to show the positive outcome educating folks could have and I have caught rain on this.
Peace out everyone, ok??

txbirddog wrote:

wgoforth wrote:Just recently moved to Brownwood, TX. Waaaaaaaay into the mall is a "Mall Etiquette" sign, that way down the list states "no weapons, legal or illegal." I realize that it is not the proper sign nor properly displayed, but still doesn't mean one could not get hassled about it, be asked to leave or even have cops called on them. I called the Property Manager's office of the mall and was informed that it is intended to include CHL holders. I informed her that there must be a properly displayed 30.06 sign. She said that this was to keep store owners and patrons from being nervous if they thought someone might have one. Of course if they thought I did, then it wasn't concealed properly. Of course signs like this ONLY affect the good guys as bad guys could care less about the signs. Now that they have informed me that I cannot carry, do I continue to ignore the sign or vote with my feet? BTW, the mall is having most of their stores to move to the currently closed strip mall anyway soon.
Thanks
Wayne

Wayne,

If you know what the law is, why would you try to put yourself against it? I am just confused here.

I am glad it has turned out the way it has, but it could have as easily gone the other way.

Not for nothing, but you did not educate anyone. The cop that needed educated is still as dumb as a stump and running around risking a HUGE law suite for false arrest. It was one ignorant cop. I truly hope, for the safety of the community you live in, that not all the cops in your town went to the Barney Fife "depaty sherraf" academy.

I am glad you came out lucky on this one but everything you did was completely pointless. Barney would not have arrested anybody for carrying in that mall. He was simply running his large stupid mouth in an effort to impress the citizen who had put him on the Pedestal for a moment or two.

But again...I am glad this one did not back fire on you, Sooner or later everyone will hit the loaded chamber if they play Russian roulette enough times.

I thought God was the only omniscient one able to read men's hearts brother! Are you so SURE that no one got an education?? Your 100% sure that the mall manager and property owner did not know any of the things I pointed out to them concerning chl's, sign postings, etc ?? I believe they did learn some facts concerning chl of which they were not aware. I am of the opinion that when given proper information, many (not all or even most) people will change. Again, if I did not believe so, I would not have been preaching the Word for the past 30 years now would I? BTW, the "dumb cop" is around a 50 year old Texas State Trooper.
I feel I have been very patient in answering the same questions over and over here, and considering how much hammering I have received here for doing what I have felt best. please note I never asked anyone's permission nor for any to agree on my actions. It was my prerogative to do so. Now, this matter, for my part is closed. This has clearly become a case of "no good deed will go unpunished."
I don't mean to be unkind here, but I really don't know how many ways or times to express that this needs to end. Moderators, will you please lock this discussion?

once again, peace out
Wayne

I will TRY to clear this once again. YES, I know the law on this...this isn't a typical case of a store improperly posting. I have snickered at many improper postings as I kept walking...This is a case where the store AND the LEO's who provide the security were claiming it to be a "no gun zone." With that in mind, I did not wish to risk an LEO asking "can I see in your pouch" (pocket, fanny pack, etc). YES, I could get off...but not until I have taken a ride and hired a lawyer since even the LEO's were misinformed. Had a 30.06 gone up instead, I am convinced that in this small town there would have been such an outcry they would have been forced to remove it. As I have said before, if I had the attitude of letting people get away with wrong thoughts and actions, I should never have become a gospel preacher. I decided to risk that educating them would help them act properly...and it did. I only jumped back in to show the positive outcome educating folks could have and I have caught rain on this.
Peace out everyone, ok??

txbirddog wrote:

wgoforth wrote:Just recently moved to Brownwood, TX. Waaaaaaaay into the mall is a "Mall Etiquette" sign, that way down the list states "no weapons, legal or illegal." I realize that it is not the proper sign nor properly displayed, but still doesn't mean one could not get hassled about it, be asked to leave or even have cops called on them. I called the Property Manager's office of the mall and was informed that it is intended to include CHL holders. I informed her that there must be a properly displayed 30.06 sign. She said that this was to keep store owners and patrons from being nervous if they thought someone might have one. Of course if they thought I did, then it wasn't concealed properly. Of course signs like this ONLY affect the good guys as bad guys could care less about the signs. Now that they have informed me that I cannot carry, do I continue to ignore the sign or vote with my feet? BTW, the mall is having most of their stores to move to the currently closed strip mall anyway soon.
Thanks
Wayne

Wayne,

If you know what the law is, why would you try to put yourself against it? I am just confused here.

I am glad it has turned out the way it has, but it could have as easily gone the other way.

lonewolf wrote:Yeah, it was a whole different era. We actually cruised downtown around the courthouse back then. Weakley Watson was the only hardware store in town, and the Piggly Wiggly was going strong. Gordon Wood was still coaching the Lions. Sounds like a place I need to go and open up a shooting range and do chl classes. I remember when the Brownwood "T" used to be a circle.....

Digressing yet further.... yup, Weakley Watson is still there. Their sports store is the only gunshop in town. Our house was built by and occupied by the owner of Weakley Watson back in 1952. Home Depot, Higginbothoms and McCoys is also here. No Piggly Wiggly now, but do have Walmart, Kroger and Brookshires. Coach Shippley moved here from somewhere in the metro this summer. His dad is a long time preacher down in Burnet. Would love to have a decent range open up. I could help if you were serious in that. I have thought about instructing here myself (hey, church discipline takes on many forms, lol).
Wayne

C-dub wrote:And just because I'm wearing a galco fanny pack doesn't mean that it actually has a weapon in it. It might, but you can't be sure without looking inside.

Right! So now we're all happy that no uneducated LEO's in this matter will ask!

lonewolf wrote:Having lived in that area, I don't recall any anti gun sentiment at all. Perhaps it was just the circle I travelled in..........It was nothing unusual in those days for half the trucks in the student parking lots at the high schools to have shotguns/rifles in the back windows. Times gone by, I guess......

I don't know that it is anti-gun here, but maybe more a lack of interest and knowledge. I mean, when even the LEO's did not know about 30.06 is pretty behind. Here we are the largest shopping area to a population of 75,000 and no indoor range, only a couple of not so good outdoor ones. Only one gun store and it is higher than a cat's back (not including the pawn shops). Most people here drive to Abilene for chl classes (hour and a half north). But then, we are closer to AUSTIN than we were when we lived in Abilene, lol. I suspect guys didn't cruise Coggin park looking for other guys or look for same sex rendezvous at Riverside Park back then either. Times they are a changing
Wayne

SlowDave wrote:

KD5NRH wrote:

SlowDave wrote:: does a cop have to have any kind of reasonable cause to ask you for your ID, or can they just walk up to any Tom, Dick, or Harry and say, "I'm bored, gimmee your license to read."?

Reasonable articulable suspicion isn't going to be too tough to come up with in a mall. The car keys in your pocket could look like an easily shoplifted item, you could match a vague description of someone they're looking for, etc.

Appreciate the opinion, but can any LEOs post up on this? (Or are you an LEO, kd5nrh?) I'm thinking having something in your pocket would not justify "reasonable suspicion of shoplifting" since pretty much every member of the human race has something in their pockets. Having a car does not justify reasonable suspicion of searching your car for pot, even though cars have been known to carry pot.

So, sorry for thread-wandering, but can anyone answer the question about whether there is any hurdle of "reasonable suspicion" or similar for an LEO to ask for your ID if you're just walking around minding your own business? Or are they legal to just ask anyone at any time with no reason needed whatsoever?

SlowDave...since both the mall owners and the LEO's here were under the misguided understanding that the mall was a "no gun zone" then it would seem they would have had a right (IF they were correct) to ask if that was a weapon in your pocket, fanny pack, etc. Rather than get everyone going again about what concealed means, let's just rejoice that the mall manager/owner decided in favor of us rather than posting a 30.06!
Wayne

Thought all would be interested in knowing that the Heartland mall owners and managers have agreed to place the "UNLICENSED firearms forbidden" signs up. They have been ordered and are waiting for them to come in. Although there are plenty of anti-gun folks out there, we must not assume that all people who put up improper signs are either anti-gun or unwilling to change if properly educated. As a preacher, I long ago decided to educate folks on right and wrong be it God's laws or man's.
Here's to a happy resolution
Wayne

03Lightningrocks wrote:LOL....the only one who would take a ride for carrying in that mall with a CHL is you. They have not verbally forbid the rest of us. AGAIN...nobody is going to get arrested for carrying in that mall. It sounds a little bit like the movie Mall Cop...LOL. P.S. I don't carry in a fanny pack. I carry IWB with a shirt left un-tucked hanging over it. I also utilize a super tuck...neither shows any hint of my having a firearm. Everyone around here wears shirts just like I do so there is nothing unusual about my dress style. On the fanny pack issue....LOL....the folks I do know that carry them don't even know how to shoot a gun. I guess I will warn them that there is a single cop out there who rousts everyone wearing fanny packs because he knows that .00001 % of the 2% of the total population that has a CHL...MIGHT be using them to LEGALLY conceal a gun.

Seriously...this is a real far fetched reach to justify making an issue out of something that is NOT affecting the RKBA. It is kind of like making a stink out of having a red light at an intersection that has no red light because a cop said you better stop there anyway.

Lighting, like you and many others, I too carry in places that do not have a properly displayed sign. This one is different due to the fact the LEO are uninformed. They do not agree that anyone other than the verbally instructed may carry. So this has nothing to do with "The only one verbally instructed is you, the rest have not been." They do not agree they have to warn by any means other than the sign. Again, not mall cops...it is state troopers and city cops who are under the impression that it is a no-gun-zone. I am really tired of beating this dead horse, as so many wish to compare it to places where cops know different but the shopkeepers don't. This one they agree on. Yes, you'll get exonerated... Would we not all agree it would be better for them to simply post a "no unlicensed firearm" sign? I never thought this would raise such a fuss.

Wayne

karder wrote:A little off topic, but in regards to police officers giving us problems when they suspect we are carrying, I had a funny encounter about a week ago. I was at a public event in downtown El Paso and I was carrying a .40 HK USP in a 511 tactical vest. It was 100% concealed, and I had checked the event specifically to ensure it was not a prohibited area. I am there for about 2 hours, walked past a dozen cops providing security, no problem. All of sudden as I pass one, I feel him staring at me. He was an older guy and the only thing I can assume is that he recognized the vest. Well he starts following me around staying about 15 feet back. Hey, its a free world and I am not doing anything wrong, so the way I see it, I have a bodyguard...cool! He keeps tailing me and getting closer and closer until now he is following me about 3 feet behind. This goes on for about 5 minutes, and it is REALLY obvious he is walking behind me trying to spot the gun. Finally, as I can't pretend this isn't happening anymore, I stop, turn around, look at him and smile, and say "how's it going?". He seems to get embarrassed, does not smile or respond, just looks away really fast and walks on by as if we were both going in the same direction for the last 10 minutes! It was not a prohibited area unless I totally missed something, but I know this guy was looking really hard for a bump, strap, or glimpse of anything that would give him a reason to stop and question me. It was kind of silly. Now I don't know if I should re-think the vest in those situations, or if it passed with flying colors.

Yup, and as I am told here, he would have asked you if you have one, you would have taken a ride....spent some time in the pokey until your lawyer explained the law. Few thousand dollars and hours later, your free!
Wayne

Keith B wrote:

wgoforth wrote: ....one fellow said he was in a store wearing a Desantis pouch and saw another guy wearing one too... they both looked at each others pouch, smiled, nodded their heads and kept going. According to some, I suppose that wasn't concealed?

According to the law, that IS concealed. It just can't be discernible to the average person. A LEO or another gun owner recognizing a pouch, purse or a bump under a shirt is a concealed weapon holster or holder is not unconcealed. If a LEO tells you different, they are wrong.

Now, does that mean they wouldn't now have reasonable suspicion that you were carrying and be able to ask if you were in a prohibited area? Yes, but it could not be considered unconcealed.

AMEN, CORRECT, and so on and so forth ;)
That is the point I have been trying to make here. The mall sign and website says NO handguns, legal or illegal and the police who provide the security agree. That hs been my point to those who are claiming that IF an LEO can tell what it is, it's not concealed. It is concealed, but doesn't mean an experienced LEO or other gun fancier cannot tell what it is. it is still concealed.
Thanks
Wayne

KD5NRH wrote:

03Lightningrocks wrote:Your not breaking any law and you will not be arrested for carrying a weapon past the type of sign the OP mentioned as long as you have a CHL. I don't care what some ignorant back woods country fool of a cop thinks about it or how many days this same ignorant backwoods hill billy fool spent as a rent a cop. He flat out can't get away with arresting a person for just anything he decides is wrong.

Whether he can ultimately get away with it or not is irrelevant. He can certainly make the arrest, and if the prosecutor is also a backwoods hillbilly fool (quite likely in Brown county) there will be charges. As long as those charges are in effect the CHL will be suspended, and in my case, my guard card almost certainly will too, so I'll be out of work. Sure, I may eventually win a lawsuit against them, but in the meantime, somebody's going to have to feed me and pay my bills for several months. Last I checked, NRA, TSRA, etc don't claim to help with that.

COPS CANNOT TELL IF YOUR ARMED OR NOT! IF THEY CAN. CHECK YOUR METHOD OF CARRY. IT MEANS YOU HAVE CHOSEN A POOR MEANS OF CARRY.

Ah yes, an IWB tuckable is such a terrible means of carry. We're not talking about granny spotting a glock-shaped bulge under a too-tight shirt, we're talking about people trained to recognize things like 5.11, Galco, and Coronado products, the belt clips of an IWB holster, and other stuff that simply isn't going to be hidden short of wearing a trenchcoat all year. If they even suspect that you're carrying, all they have to do is ask for ID, and you're busted.

Yup, my point exactly, thanks. Remind me to buy you a cup of coffee, your only 54 miles from me. BTW, my son goes to Tarelton! I recall a post on here a while back where one fellow said he was in a store wearing a Desantis pouch and saw another guy wearing one too... they both looked at each others pouch, smiled, nodded their heads and kept going. According to some, I suppose that wasn't concealed? Cops know these products to. In fact I know several LEO's that either run gun shops, ranges or training classes.. of course they can spot that. I'd love for the mall to spend the money, get the proper sign, and have every chl carrier in town complain until they drop it. The mall is going broke anyway, they couldn't afford it. BUT, my hopes are they will put up the "No UNLICENSED firearm" signs.
Cheers and thanks again
Wayne

NRA member
CHL holder
North TX Firearm Academy in Urban Combat

Taurus 24/7 9mm
Taurus 24/7 Compact 9mm
Ruger LCP 380
Taurus 709 9mm
Sig Mosquito 22 cal
Mitchell 12 ga 7 shot 18.5 barrel

03Lightningrocks wrote:

surprise_i'm_armed wrote:wgoforth:

As far as LEO's able to tell who's carrying: keep in mind that when they are
dispatched to a call or come upon some evildoer, they may be able to tell
he's carrying because they expect him to be carrying. Many gangsters do
not have holsters for their weapons, and when you are wearing baggy pants
with no belt that could draw attention. Or even a cowboy with a pistol stuck
in his jeans, Mexican carry style.

You claim that you were asked what was in your hip pack, which I assume is where
you carry your gun. Also that someone was staring at a bulge of yours.
You may wish to reconsider your rig. Concealed means concealed.

Ever since I got my CHL I have tried to "make"
other CHL's. I have never seen one person that I could ID as CHL. Since there are
about 314,574 CHL's out of the Texas population of about 22,000,000, that means that
about 1 in 70 Texans has a CHL. So in a room of 70 people, someone's packing.

It's a big job to make all the non-compliant posted sites know that they should
post 30.06. The rest of us don't have the desire or the time to go there.

SIA

Good points. My daughter outed some guy in a restaurant during one of our "packing"/"not packing" games. ...of course we have no way of knowing if we are right or not, but he was wearing a hunters vest over a flannel shirt with NRA shooting patches and what not all over it, in warm weather, and a gimme cap with some kind of farm implement company on the front.

I believe I can say I've made a couple...what about those wearing a Desantis Hipster just like your own? Again, you think a cop couldn't make that? BUT, as long as it's covered, even if he figures that's what it is, it's concealed as far as he is concerned. Now, suppose you wore one in a mall where police were standing LOOKING for gun carriers? and they were under the incorrect assumption that it was a no-gun zone? That is what we are dealing with it. Again, I am dealing with ignorance on the part of the property owners AND the authorities, not a typical situation. BTW, in a small town, a public figure (I am a local church minister) can get a lot done.

The local radio station here had gun rights as their topic... I just called in and had my 5 minutes asking others to politely call or write the mall asking they they put up a "No unlicensed firearm" sign.

Here is the letter I sent to mall establishment yesterday
begins:

Dear Mrs Roark,
Thank you for taking my call in regards to CHL's. As you may not have considered, sign notices such as yours not only do not meet state requirements in order to be enforceable, but only apply to law abiding citizens as bad guys could care less about signs. Surely a would be robber would not leave his gun outside due to a sign. The Taylor Co deputy training us told us to ignore all signs that do not comply, for if we carriers must abide by the law, so do you.

Texas DPS website that specifies the wording and size of sign may be found at

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administra ... osting.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I would like to make you aware of some facts related to CHL holders in Texas of which you may be unaware:

1. A CHL holder has no felony convictions on his/her record.
2. A CHL holder has not had a class A or B misdemeanor within five years of the original issuance of the license.
3. A CHL holder is not mentally incapable.
4. A CHL holder is not permitted to be chemically dependent.
5. A CHL holder has received training in the law of self-defense.
6. A CHL holder has passed a handgun qualification exercise.
7. All CHL holders are 21-years-old or older.
8. CHL holders do not have outstanding child support payments and are not in default on student loans.

CHL holders pride themselves on being upstanding citizens--they typically avoid criminal behavior to the letter of the law. For that reason, they will not enter your business armed when they see your sign. However, most guard their second amendment rights with a ferver. They will usually take their business elsewhere rather than accept what they perceive as an insult to their character and responsibility level.

May I offer, as an alternative to the 30.06 sign, the posting of a sign forbidding the unlicensed possession of a firearm? This will allow you to make the statement that you do not want criminal behavior, while respecting the wishes of lawful gun carriers. The mall in Abilene has just such a sign stating "The UNLICENSED possesion of a handgun in this establishment is forbidden."

I encourage you to visit the Department of Public Safety (DPS) website. http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; You will find a great deal of information about the CHL holders in your community.

Thank you for you time and attention. I would be happy to work with you in a way to both satisfy your CHL customers and meet the needs of your establishment as well. Keep in mind that the only time a CHL holder is allowed to draw his weapon is in a case of life and death. Surely if such were to occur at your mall, you would be happy to have a law abiding carrying individual present. You will never see our weapons unless needed, for "concealed" means "concealed."

As for me, I refuse to be where I cannot defend myself or my family. My chances of being harmed is the exact percentage as the customers of the Salt Lake City Mall. Which, btw, the shooter was unlicensed and did not care about signs nor laws.

I am considering publishing this in the opinion page of the Brownwood Bulletin, but hope you will give a positive consideration to such.

Wayne Goforth

03Lightningrocks wrote:

wgoforth wrote:

03Lightningrocks wrote:

KC5AV wrote:You have hit upon one of many reasons why it's a good idea not to mention non-compliant signs. It gives them the opportunity to give you verbal notice that they don't want you there, and it gives them the opportunity to post a compliant sign.

As for whether you continue to carry/patronize the businesses, I can't really say.

Excellent point. Best to just keep ones mouth shut and carry concealed.

For the most part I would agree...but the problem here is that the authorities are the security and they agree with the idea that the sign is sufficient and that if your caught carrying you go to jail with a felony. Don't kid yourselves into thinking that experienced LEO's can't tell if someone is carrying. They may not be able to 100% of the time, but even many of us can while the general population cannot. If you see a guy with the same hip bag and fanny pack that you see in the gun shops it's a give away. Cops can spot that too. My point is that I want to educate the authorities and the mall here. Sure, we could beat the rap after hiring a lawyer and spending time in jail, but who needs that?? Again, I would normally agree to keep mouth shut. I have done that at many places...but when the mall and the police both agree, sounds like a perfect good-ol-boy system possibility to me.
Wayne

I don't think your getting it yet. If your caught carrying it means you have failed to conceal properly. Your going to get in trouble for failure to conceal. Sign or no sign. Seriously...the law is the law on this. Incorrect posting means you can carry. If you keep poking at the Tiger cage, your gonna get ate. Your going to have a fit if you walk in there and it is properly posted, thanks to your hard efforts and the help from the anti-gun cop you spoke with. It is probably natural for new CHL holders to feel like everyone can see the gun, but trust me...keep it under a shirt or vest and nobody will even come close to guessing you have a gun. Bulge in pocket for 99% of the population of Texas means keys or cell phone. your the only one that knows your bulge is a gun.

Some places post gun buster signs and what not to make the sheep feel safer. They really could not care less if you carry there. They also may be pulling a legal maneuver to avoid law suites if you blast someone in the mall with your CHL authorized weapon. Don't force them to properly post the place. Just keep your gun concealed and your mouth closed.

I will try this one more time then I will give up and do what I feel is best... if you see a guy with a fanny/hip pack you see in gun shops you know he's carrying even though the weapon is concealed, right? Now your saying if they know it's not concealed... is the pouch concealment or not? But since they go to gun shows too they know what it is. I have been around enough LEO's who have told me they can tell by the way a person walks, a lump under his shirt, etc that they are carrying. Do not assume I am new to this please. Actually, I would rather see a 30.06 and KNOW where I stand, than have a sign stuck in the back and police arrest me claiming I'm in a no gun zone. Again, yes I can get out of it.... but rather not get into it.
Wayne

03Lightningrocks wrote:

KC5AV wrote:You have hit upon one of many reasons why it's a good idea not to mention non-compliant signs. It gives them the opportunity to give you verbal notice that they don't want you there, and it gives them the opportunity to post a compliant sign.

As for whether you continue to carry/patronize the businesses, I can't really say.

Excellent point. Best to just keep ones mouth shut and carry concealed.

For the most part I would agree...but the problem here is that the authorities are the security and they agree with the idea that the sign is sufficient and that if your caught carrying you go to jail with a felony. Don't kid yourselves into thinking that experienced LEO's can't tell if someone is carrying. They may not be able to 100% of the time, but even many of us can while the general population cannot. If you see a guy with the same hip bag and fanny pack that you see in the gun shops it's a give away. Cops can spot that too. My point is that I want to educate the authorities and the mall here. Sure, we could beat the rap after hiring a lawyer and spending time in jail, but who needs that?? Again, I would normally agree to keep mouth shut. I have done that at many places...but when the mall and the police both agree, sounds like a perfect good-ol-boy system possibility to me.
Wayne

lonewolf wrote:Big whopping mall......in the old days there was a JC Pennys on one end and a KMart on the other (1983). Now its pretty much a ghost town full of echos. Back in the day there were a lot of neat shops in downtown Brownwood as well, but the Wally World pretty much killed all that. Even the hardware/lumber stores have all but disappeared since Home Depot showed up. I'd bet the only grocery store in town, other than Walmart is the Kroger's, and they won't even expand it into a big Kroger that will take up the entire building they are in.......

Still,I do like the area......

The population has gone from 20,000 to 26,000 in 10 years. We have 3-M and Kohler bath products here as well. We still have McCoy's and Higginbothams and Weakly-Watson's. The contractors seem to like Higginbothams. In fact, we purchased the house that Mr Weakly built back in the 50's. Grocery stores... along with Kroger we have Brookshires. On Downtown, still a lot of neat shops. Fisk and Center St are revitalized with the trendy "Turtle Restaurant" located there. Penny's is still in the mall as is Beals, but they are moving back to the old Commerce Square shopping center due to rent. That may finish off the mall. When I was telling one of our church members tonight about our problem, he said he was going to write the mall and tell them no gun=no money from him.

Wayne