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IMO, there are two parts this incident. The first is the fake 911 call. It is easy to get caught up on only this part. However, the SWAT team is not a weapon. We should not have to accept that if the SWAT team shows up someone has to die.

IMO, there should be an investigation into exactly what was happening at the scene of the shot?
What the victim was doing?
Why did the officer made the shot? I heard it said he moved his hands toward his waste. Should they shoot if they don't even see a weapon?
Was that shot really necessary at the time?
Would different tactics have made that shot unnecessary (if it was necessary in the first place)?
At what other points after the fake 911 call was made could the officers have realized that it was fake and backed off?
Lastly, should a 911 call be reason enough for a SWAT team to charge in ready kill someone?

That last is a big question to me. If group of men break in my house and I hide in the closet and call 911, I am going to stay on the phone and in contact. I am not going to just call up 911 and then hang up. In addition, the cops should be able to take note of the scene as they approach to confirm the situation on the ground is what has been reported. I think when it comes down to it, the first job of police is not to charge in and save the day much as we would like that to happen.

K.Mooneyham wrote:When we received training on accidents, we were taught the concept of a chain of events. Breaking any link in the chain will prevent the accident from occurring. I really cannot see how this is any different, besides it not being an accident, which makes it worse. The entire incident would never have occurred, and the deceased would still be alive, had the call never been placed. It is the first link in the chain of events.

Yep. There were probably several errors that all came together. With injuries in industrial settings, that is the case as well.

I think in this case there was only one shot. It would be interesting if we could actually get candid commentary from the officers involved. I would settle for at least seeing all the video that police have available so we could get a better picture of events. There were some things said about the way the deceased was behaving that I would like to see for myself.

They will prosecute him for something, I just don't know how it will be done or how serious of a charge they will be able to make. My only question was if the officer is found to have acted appropriately and not prosecuted, I am sure the guy's lawyer will use that in trial for any charge beyond just the false report.

I am also not sure I disagree with that on the criminal side. This should not have resulted in someone's death or even injury for that matter. IMO, there is a problem with the way police handle these calls. I guess it would help if we had the entire video from the moment police rolled up.

Have any of you seen video of the entire encounter? I was curious when that was released. I heard people say the guy had several chances to surrender put his hands up, but ended up not doing it for some reason. I wanted more information before I say anything else. I am not sure if it will change my opinion, but I want to see it.

Txtension wrote:

cedarparkdad987 wrote:Do not go outside. If you do go out side put your hands in the air and do not do anything else even if they tell you to. No matter what.

I find it hard to believe that if you just not answer the door, LE will go away. In fact now it totally justifies a crack team of commandos with APC's, tear gas, and flashbangs making a breaching action.

So you go outside hands up and refuse to obey any other lawful commands. Looks like you are on PCP, an extremely powerful drug that increases your strength, dexterity, constitution and hit points to ridiculous levels. And that's why everyone on scene emptied their mags reloaded and emptied those. And if you really were high, it's doubtful that they could have brought enough ammunition. But I digress; into the absurd

I figure the plan would be to stay inside and call 911 with the intent of getting in touch with the police outside. I don't know what else to do in that situation. If you are already outside, my only suggestion is to keep your hands up and/or away from your body or go spread eagle on the ground and don't move.

I haven't seen full video, but I am hearing that the man had several opportunities to raise his hands and did, but kept dropping them for some reason. I still don't like that he got shot, but I would like to see the whole thing. I am not sure how I would want police to behave different if at all.

Innocent until proven guilty goes both ways. If it applies to the officer, it should apply to the citizens. The cops don't have a right to treat everyone they encounter as a lethal threat.

Did you noticed how far away the cops were from this guy? IMO, they were never under any significant threat no matter what his hands were doing or what he might have had in them. If they were in the yard close to him, I can see giving more leeway, but they were pretty far back. That is too trigger happy for me.

dlh wrote:The more I read about this case the more bizarre it is.

What is the crime and range of punishment in that jurisdiction for filing/making a false report? Probably not severe enough.

Plus, if they don't prosecute the officer for the death, can you really punish the SWAT'er as an accessory to murder?

The other question I would ask is what justifies the police officer making a shot like that? Shouldn't it be a readily identifiable threat? All the guy did was move his hands a little. That is not a threat. That may lead to a threat in some cases, but it isn't there yet. In addition, the police were a distance away with rifles behind cover. Even a drawn pistol or knife isn't a huge threat at that distance. In this case, I think the officer making the shot was trigger happy or screwed up and should be up on charges for murder. You can blame the fake police report some, but it was the cop who shot this guy without cause.

Perhaps another question or two for the members here:

1. If cops roll up on your house tonight and order you out of the house. Would you do it?

Seeing this action, I wouldn't set foot outside or show myself in a window for fear of being shot. I would be concerned they would start shooting at silhouettes in the window if they didn't see anything else. All I can think of is to stay out of sight and call 911 and try to talk to someone.

2. If (like in Arizona) police confront you in the open, what would you do?

I think I might just go prone on the ground and refuse to move. It appears any movement will get you shot no matter what it is.

Who the hell trains these cops? There was no justification whatsoever for that shot. He was so far away that even if he had a pistol the police were in very little danger. The cop who shot should be up on charges right alongside the person who called in the fake SWATing report. His hands appeared to still be in view to me.

This looks very much like the case in Arizona of the Texas man who was murdered. Maybe a few murder convictions will lead to a change in this behavior.