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by wil
Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:34 pm
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: Calexit
Replies: 82
Views: 13662

Re: Calexit

ELB wrote:As an intellectual and moral matter, the rights to self-government, free speech, self-defense, etc are based on the notion they are inherent to our existence and given by God.

As a practical matter, they are based on violence, on the use of force -- the Founding Fathers and the Continental Army and militias beat the British. There was no "legal" basis for us to separate -- King George III and his government wanted to hang our forefathers as traitors, and he would have been quite "legal" in doing so. Having created a separation -- a secession -- by force, we created a new legal basis among ourselves and agreed to abide by it. (For that matter, all law is ultimately about violence, the legal system simply adjudicates who gets to do "legal" violence to whom, and for what reasons). Ultimately there was a treaty signed between Britain and the confederation of American states -- I suppose that could be said to be a "legal" basis, but it was ratification of a secession already established by force.

The US Constitution and the laws derived from it (and the laws not derived from it!) do not provide for dismantling the US --there is no "legal" way to secede, there is no mechanism that via constitutional article nor legal statute provides for secession.

Do not confuse what might be "right", God-given or otherwise, with what is "legal." We try to get them to overlap, but they are not always 100% congruent.
"sigh" what is it that makes people so overwhelmingly invested in the false notion of 'might makes right" ? It is a lie.
ELB wrote:As an intellectual and moral matter, the rights to self-government, free speech, self-defense, etc are based on the notion they are inherent to our existence and given by God.
As evidenced by this, as it's called common or natural law and is the founding law of this nation, as identified in the declaration independence. You recall this line? "We hold these truths to be self-evident..."

Press on with your might makes right thing......
by wil
Thu Feb 02, 2017 5:43 pm
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: Calexit
Replies: 82
Views: 13662

Re: Calexit

ELB wrote:Your examples refute you.

The Declaration of Independence certainly was not a legal procedure in the legal system it was written under -- it was a declaration of rebellion. 1776, 1836, and 1861, were all examples of rebellion against the legal authority. None of them were done according to the rules of the legal system that was in force, and those systems did not have any legal procedure for seceding. Just like there is no legal means in the US Constitution.

Secession is certainly a political act, and act of power, and you can claim the right to do so, but it is not in any sense legal. You have to make it stick, to have enough power to do so. In 1776 and 1836, the rebels were able to muster the political and military power to make it happen.

The Confederate States of America could not muster that power, and the result put paid to the notion that one can legally secede from the US. That's not to say it can't or won't happen in the future, but it won't be "legal" unless the Constitution is amended.
ok, then let me ask you this question.

What is the basis of authority for the Constitution and the bill of rights as law? Since the same group of people wrote both, on what basis do they derive their legitimacy as law?
by wil
Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:48 pm
Forum: Off-Topic
Topic: Calexit
Replies: 82
Views: 13662

Re: Calexit

ELB wrote:
JustSomeOldGuy wrote:Cherry picking select quotes/topics from Tucker Carlson's interview of the liberal talking head from California;

Lastly, Texas is the only entity that has a legal right to secede, ...
Not true. Texas has no more powers than any other state. And maybe has less. The annexation agreement that brought Texas into the Union limited the maximum number of states that Texas could be divided into (5) - no other state has a limit on it like that.

As to legality, there is no legal mechanism to secede from the US. If a state announces it has "seceded" then the result will either be acquiescence or war. Last time there was war.
ELB wrote:As to legality, there is no legal mechanism to secede from the US.
Yes there is a legal mechanism, it is stated directly and clearly in the founding law of this country, the declaration of independence.

http://www.ushistory.org/Declaration/document/


"..That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."


You'll note the most important part............."....it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it...."

Secession is one means of accomplishing that and was done both in 1776 and 1836.

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