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by flintknapper
Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:51 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Almost went to jail!!!
Replies: 292
Views: 61529

Re: Almost went to jail!!!

My wife gets frustrated with me because I have a direct way of making a point. And my reply to her is that I am simply communicating what needs to be done about some subject and that it goes without saying that it should be delivered in a compassionate, Christian, but unmistakable way so that at the end of the matter proper communication has been delivered.

My point with this subject is similar. We need to hold businesses accountable for their non-compliance to the same degree we are held for ours. Yes we have the right to walk past a non-compliant sign and we should be able to, indeed we are able to. But that is not the best way to solve the problem.

The problem needs to be addressed...everywhere we see it...(read these words carefully) in a mature, proper, effective way. Not an in-your-face, catch-me-if-you-can, I'll show you, you can't make me sort of way. That will probably require support from legislation, discussions with owners, police departments, local DAs, etc.

If we don't address the issue eventually a gun-buster sign will become the defacto 30.07 sign because 'we don't want to make waves'.

We need to make waves, in a professional, mature way and solidify the right we have been given by the state of Texas.

One school of thought is to not bring to much attention to this or it might generate more .06s or .07s. That's is no way to stand up for our right. How is that different from the policy that we shouldn't offend Radical you know whats lest we give them a recruiting tool?

The other school of thought is that expecting and requiring .06 and .07 compliance is not too much to ask.

I fall into the later. There is still work to be done and we should do it...professionally, maturely, calmly, but with resoluteness. Causing a scene is not the way to go. Taking your money elsewhere when you have a RIGHT to the public accommodation by law and according to the law (ie, if they want me to leave then I should expect it to be done by law) is a temporary and probably ineffective way to secure our right.

Then there is the thought that if it is non-compliant and we complain for a change, the change will be to a compliant sign equaling the same result. My answer to that is that is this. If you don't want me in your establishment, show me and the rest of the law abiding gun-carrying citizens the courtesy of respecting the very law you use as your tool to keep me out . They expect us to follow the law, IMPECCABLY, and they should be held to the same standard. We are the only ones with an interest in this. No one else has a dog in the fight.

Professionally, non confrontationally, maturely, resolutely, and always showing gun carriers in the best light.

To quote Forest..."and that's all I have to say about that".

tex
^^^^^^^^

This is my position as well.
by flintknapper
Sun Jan 03, 2016 1:04 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Almost went to jail!!!
Replies: 292
Views: 61529

Re: Almost went to jail!!!

Ruark wrote:
This is awkward.
Yes, for all involved.

I wouldn't OC past that sign, yet at the same time it's not legal. I don't want to get into a face-to-face with a cop.
Not legal/compliant is correct, so it is each person's choice to take it to the next level (Verbal or Written notice). No one (including LEO wants this interaction) but it might be necessary...in order to get Merchants to comply.
But if we take that approach, we won't OC past ANY no-guns sign, 30.07 or gunbuster or whatever.
Correct, as I posted previously, herein lies the danger and it will affect both CC and OC. We shouldn't be in two different 'camps' but apparently that is the sad case. What is going to happen if this isn't sorted out RIGHT NOW while there is focus on it....is this:

Merchants will quickly learn that they can display any type of non-compliant sign, then call LEO to 'notify' (which is NOT the job of law enforcement, but the responsibility of the establishment). OR....someone acting with apparent authority for the establishment will simply say we don't want ANY guns in here" which drags CC into the mix. This does not need to happen.

IF law abiding citizens are required to COMPLY with all applicable law, then MERCHANTS should be too!

There has been a huge failure on the part of pro-gun advocates to EDUCATE or help facilitate the education of businesses prior to OC becoming law. I believe this to be the root of our problems.

And just a message to those who CC...but look down on OC. You'd better get on board...and start supporting ALL pro-gun issues. IF you don't....you are going to quickly find that with certain businesses, you've just been 'flying under the radar'. Let's do all we can to promote OC in the same way we did CC.
by flintknapper
Sat Jan 02, 2016 2:30 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Almost went to jail!!!
Replies: 292
Views: 61529

Re: Almost went to jail!!!

I laid it out in my posts. It is pretty obvious. Too bad you can't see it.
What I "see" is ONE person appointing themselves judge and jury, confident they have the answer(s)?

I agree with 'some' of your points, but am not persuaded to summarily attack the character or intentions of the OP, having no more to go on than has been posted. Perhaps you are less inclined to exercise restraint?
by flintknapper
Sat Jan 02, 2016 1:34 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Almost went to jail!!!
Replies: 292
Views: 61529

Re: Almost went to jail!!!

It was reason and discernment that made it clear he was trolling. The evidence was laid out so that even an ant could see it.
Uh-Huh .....and WHO decided that?
by flintknapper
Sat Jan 02, 2016 12:35 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Almost went to jail!!!
Replies: 292
Views: 61529

Re: Almost went to jail!!!

When one kicks the antpile, one does not get to choose by how many ants he gets bit by.

He got exactly what he was seeking.
Fortunately as humans we have God given intelligence and the ability to reason (most of us) ;-) . We are not supposed to act as 'ants' or other lesser creatures with the same response to every action (any PERCEIVED threat receives immediate attack).

IF the OP is indeed 'trolling' then I submit he has filled his 'stringer' several times over, judging by the responses.

Personally, I don't see anything beyond dissenting points of view. Something that is not always tolerated here.

We will have our answer soon enough.
by flintknapper
Sat Jan 02, 2016 12:01 am
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Almost went to jail!!!
Replies: 292
Views: 61529

Re: Almost went to jail!!!

They may have had an "incorrect" sign up . . . but the intent of the sign was to notify oc folk to not oc in the restaurant.
^^^^^^^^^^

I believe this is correct...most of the time. However, I can imagine that certain establishments might purposely display a non-compliant sign to satisfy insurance needs or unofficial company policies with the express intent of allowing patrons to enter with no penalty.

The only way for someone to know for certain...(the intent of the establishment) is for them to post a compliant sign and/or to verbally notify. Pretty simple. Merchants need to do their part and if they don't, the police need to remind them to do so.
by flintknapper
Fri Jan 01, 2016 11:47 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Almost went to jail!!!
Replies: 292
Views: 61529

Re: Almost went to jail!!!

bottom line it was not a legally posted sign unless poster was verbal directed to leave there should have been no problem. The law clearly defines what a legal 30.06/30.07 sign is.
^^^^^^^^^^^
This is correct.

While I certainly understand that even a non-compliant sign conveys the wishes of the establishment, per the letter of the law, a non-compliant sign has no force of law. Only when asked to leave by someone with apparent authority does the position of the establishment become clear and have force of law (and only then IF the actor refuses to leave).

The police should have NO part in asking/demanding the actor leave, that is not their job. That is the job of the establishment. ONLY if the actor refuses to leave....has a trespass been committed, thus opening the situation for the need of law enforcement.

IF establishments learn they can post small non-compliant signs and then just a call the police to handle the rest, then you can bet they will do so.

Quite naturally....law enforcement will grow weary of this and bad things are bound to come of it. INSTEAD, establishments should be made to comply with the clear definition of the signage required. That way....if someone enters, they are clearly and IMMEDIATELY trespassing.

As far as continuing to enter a place of business (displaying a non-compliant sign) is concerned, I think that is fool hardy at best. But it is yet unclear whether or not the courts would look at the entry as a 'Separate Event' each and every time (requiring verbal notice each time) or if they would fall on the side of the Merchant....who will claim their intent should have been clear the first time.

I know what I would do, but these things are definitely not black and white at this juncture.

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