Gentlemen,Charles L. Cotton wrote:That mirrors my experience in eight years of going to Virginia at least 6 to 8 times a year. I go to Arlington and Fairfax primarily, but have been to other cities/towns on rare occasions. In fact, this mirrors my experience in traveling all over the country for over 30 years.gmckinl wrote:Arggggggggh. As Popeye says I can't stands no more.
Just wanted to throw out an observation from one who spends and has spent way too much time in Virginia. Virginia ie the holy grail of OC; from the OC.org website - OpenCarry.org was founded in 2004 by Virginia gun-rights activists John Pierce and Mike Stollenwerk and has served to ignite the "Open Carry Movement".
Keeping it brief, OC is allowed in VA. Going into ANY restaurant that serves alcohol precludes concealed carry, hence the frequent web references to taking your coat off at the door.
My point is, that in all my time in VA I've seen... wait for it... NO ONE open carrying. Not one single person other than uniformed LEOs. Yes I've heard all the blather (web postings) about OC get togethers at restaurant xyz. BUT I'VE NEVER SEEN THAT EVEN ONCE.
I can only conclude that either it's not frequent (not many people wish to), or some of the proponents preach but don't practice. I don't know the answer, maybe a bit of both?????
I'm on the company's nickle so you can jolly well bet I'm eating out all three meals a day, yet in five years of going up there, from my point of view - no one seen to be OC'ing.
I would love to watch someone OC'ing down King Street in Alexandria. Pop into some snooty art gallery w/ a great big ole pistol on their hip for all the world to see. Or, into go into 219 for a nice dinner with it shining in the sun. Yeah right, sure you would do it.How about the Ruth's Chris in Pentagon City (or is it Crystal City) - and walk through the neighboring mall to get there. More
"Rare occurrence" is the key phrase.
Over and Out.
Chas.
It is not being asserted that Open Carry is especially common (Concealed Carry isn’t either).
If the point you are trying to make is that OC is a bad idea (not socially acceptable) and you seek to prove the same by pointing out how rare it is….then you must concede that Concealed Carry follows very closely behind it.
I believe with all my heart that Texans would have pretty much the same questions and reactions to OC as are presented in this post from a source in PA.
http://paopencarry.org/ocqa.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It might be well for everyone to take a minute to read the following and see if you think these are valid questions and honest/likely answers. (I know I do).
Some of what is written below (as concerns the law) is not applicable to Texas, but the bulk of the questions and answers presented are the same as folks have in most states:
1) Is open carry legal in PA?
Answer: Yes, with some restrictions.
Anyone whom can legally own a firearm in the commonwealth can openly carry, on foot, with the exception of court facilities, federal buildings, motor vehicles and cities of the first class (Philadelphia)
Those person possessing a valid License to Carry Firearms are also permitted to carry openly (or concealed) while in a vehicle and in cities of the first class.
2) Do I need a permit to open carry in PA?
A PA License to Carry Firearms (LTCF) is needed to open carry in a vehicle and cities of the first class (Philadelphia)
A LTCF is not needed for open carry on foot in the rest of the commonwealth save for prohibited areas.
3) Can I be charged with "brandishing" or "disturbing the peace" if I open carry in PA?
Short answer: Yes, you could be charged with a number of violations by an unknowing LEO. BUT, the charges would not be applicable, per the statutes, for merely open carrying. Commonwealth v. Hawkins 1996 clearly states that open carry, in and of itself, lacking any actual threatening or illegal behavior on the part of the person open carrying, is not grounds for a "stop and ID" by police. As such, open carry can not be anything warranting a "stop and ID" or greater reaction such as detainment or arrest.
Long answer: There is no "brandishing" or "disturbing the peace" law in PA. The most often threatened charges against someone open carrying is "disorderly conduct", and "terroristic threats".
§ 5503. Disorderly conduct.
(a) Offense defined.--A person is guilty of disorderly conduct if, with intent to cause public inconvenience, annoyance or alarm, or recklessly creating a risk thereof, he:
1. engages in fighting or threatening, or in violent or tumultuous behavior;
2. makes unreasonable noise;
3. uses obscene language, or makes an obscene gesture; or
4. creates a hazardous or physically offensive condition by any act which serves no legitimate purpose of the actor.
Though this section does not deal with firearms, due to the nature of this code, this law has been cited by officers to suppress or discourage lawful open carry. Since a person who is not licensed per §6109 or exempted by §6106(b) MUST open carry their firearms on foot in order to avoid criminal charge, nor is there any duty for anyone licensed to conceal their handgun, open carry is not disorderly conduct. The open carrying of firearms is not by itself threatening, nor does it cause a hazardous or physically offensive condition. There are also two cases that that specifically state that a person may carry a firearm openly: Commonwealth v. Ortiz and Commonwealth v. Hawkins.
In summary, with case law to support, OC is legal and does "serve a legitimate purpose of the actor". Therefor OC can not be Disorderly Conduct per the letter of the code itself.
§ 2706. Terroristic threats.
(a) Offense defined. A person commits the crime of terroristic threats if the person communicates, either directly or indirectly, a threat to: commit any crime of violence with intent to terrorize another; cause evacuation of a building, place of assembly, or facility of public transportation; or otherwise cause serious public inconvenience, or cause terror or serious public inconvenience with reckless disregard of the risk of causing such terror or inconvenience.
(e) Definition.--As used in this section, the term "communicates" means conveys in person or by written or electronic means, including telephone, electronic mail, Internet, facsimile, telex and similar transmissions.
As with disorderly conduct, this code section has been used to suppress or discourage lawful open carry. “Convey” means to communicate, either orally or by written or electronic means. Because the open carry of firearms is not a communication as defined by this section, it cannot be terroristic threatening.
Also, again, Commonwealth v. Hawkins 1996 clearly states that open carry, in and of itself, lacking any actual threatening or illegal behavior on the part of the person open carrying is not grounds for even a "stop and ID" by police. As such, open carry can not be anything warranting a "stop and ID" or greater reaction such as detainment or arrest.
4) Is open carry common? I never see anyone doing it...
Open carry is generally more common the more rural the area. However, recently, open carry has been becoming more common throughout the commonwealth. Additionally, many people fail to recognize people open carrying.
5) I prefer the element of surprise. Why would anyone would want to open carry.
Opponents of OC often fail to think about the effect of deterrence.
A crime deterred = no "surprise" needed. A Surprise you may not be able to get to before you're injured or dead.
On the other hand, there is the rare scenario where having a gun could make you a "target". IMO way less likely than the more common thug that wants nothing to do with a "hard" (armed) target.
In the end, OC/CC is a crap shoot. One circumstance may be better handled with OC while another better handled with CC.
Open carry is simply another option. Weigh your odds in your area and carry appropriately.
LINK: An interesting read on open vs. concealed carry.
6) Is there any places I can not open carry?
Yes. Off limits to open carry and concealed carry are:
- ANY Court facility
- ANY Federal Property (Unless Authorized)
- State Parks (except while in vehicle)
- Detention Facilities (Adult & Juvenile)
- Air Carrier Airport Terminals (secure areas, common areas OK)
Open carry in a vehicle requires a valid PA License to Carry Firearms or a carry license from any other state.
Open carry in Philadelphia requires a valid PA License to Carry Firearms.
7) What are the advantages to open carry?
This is a partial list:
• Tactics. Quicker access to your defensive weapon.
• Deterrent. Most criminals seek easy or weak prey.
• Comfort. Open carry can be more comfortable in many situations and climates.
• Political activism. Openly carried firearms remind us of our rights and our duties to defend ourselves, our families and our communities. It puts normal "everyday Joe and Jane" faces with GUNS. It squashes the irrational concept that people whom carry guns are dubious or odd.
8) What are the disadvantages of open carry?
This is a partial list:
• People know you are armed. This is an advantage AND a possible disadvantage. It depends on the situation. It would be a rare but possible case for an aggressor to be willing to attack or otherwise confront you at all costs. In this type of situation open carry can give the aggressor a chance to sum up your capabilities and plan accordingly.
• Your firearm is easier to take away from you. Retention is a good thing to have training in and active retention holsters are a very good idea for open carry. An affordable level II retention holster is the BlackHawk SERPA CQC.
• Harassment. Unfortunately we live in a backwards world where many people do not understand the concept of self defense. Open carry is generally a non-issue according to those whom practice it regularly. However, as can be imagined, there are extremists and ignorant people that would harass you verbally or by refusing you service (such as at a restaurant) for your lawful open carry. No different than they may discriminate against you for having hair dyed pink.
9) Do businesses allow open carry in their establishments?
Yes, most businesses allow carry. Some do not. Some allow concealed but not open. Some allow only police to carry. Etc.
Businesses are private property and they have the right to allow or disallow any behavior they please. Unfortunately most businesses do not post these rules, particularly their policy on allowing or prohibiting firearms. In PA, signs carry no legal weight in regards to private property rules. This may be part of the reason why few businesses post signs clarifying their policy on carrying of firearms. If a business has a policy against carrying firearms in their establishment they have to ask you to leave, at which time you are obliged to do so. Failure to do so can result in trespass charges being filed.
For businesses that do post signs stating their policy against carrying firearms it is best to heed such signage if you are openly carrying. No sense in going onto a property whose intentions are known only to be told the same by someone once inside. Honor their wishes by simply shopping elsewhere.
10) Is open carry a good idea?
This is a question that only each individual can answer for themselves. Consider the advantages, disadvantages and the circumstances around where you are carrying.
11) Will I be harassed by law enforcement even if I am legally open carrying?
Unfortunately there are a small number of law enforcement officers that will give you a hard time over openly carrying. They may not know or understand the law or they may have a personal disagreement with open carry. That said, there is really nothing that police can do to prevent you from open carrying within the laws. Nor can they harass or editorialize (lecture) you within the law. Does it still happen? Yes, as with racism, illegal searches and other police abuses there is always a few bad apples that will violate the law. As a whole, police harassment of open carriers in PA is very low. There is a lot of rumor about OC harassment but most of it seems to be just that, rumor.
12) My Sheriff said open carry is illegal. How can you say that it is legal?
Many people trust the police to be able to confirm what is legal and what is not. There are a lot of laws in PA and the police can not know them all. Police can also pass on misinformation that was incorrectly given to them. And some may even intentionally give you incorrect information to encourage you not to do something they disagree with.
Without making this topic more lengthy than it is, the best thing to do in regards to legal questions is to ask an attorney that specializes in the area of law you have a question about. Asking law enforcement for legal advice is not a good idea in almost any circumstance.
I post the relevant laws and case law that show the legality and restrictions to open carry as confirmed by the PA Supreme Court. If any of this information is unclear you need to consult a qualified attorney for clarification.
13) Can I open carry in other states?
Yes. More than 40 states allow open carry. Some without a license and some with. You will have to research the laws of the particular state you are interested in open carrying in. The best resource currently available for getting information on and links to state by state open carry laws is http://www.opencarry.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
14) Who can open carry?
Any persons 18 years of age and older whom are not prohibited by law from owning firearms may openly carry a holstered handgun in plain sight with no license except in vehicles*, cities of the first class** (Philadelphia) and where prohibited specifically by statute.
* Open carry in a vehicle requires a valid PA License to Carry Firearms (LTCF)
or a carry license from ANY other state. Ref: Title 18 §6106
** Open carry in a city of the first class requires a valid PA
LTCF or a carry license from ANY other state. Ref: Title 18 §6108
15) Will I get funny looks if I open carry?
Depends. In some areas, yes. I've noticed many of the occasional "double take" type of looks. I wouldn't read into them too much. If I saw an open carrier I might stare too because I was trying to see what model handgun they were carrying. But seriously, you can expect the occasional funny looks and even questions. "Is that legal?", "are you a police officer?" and "Why do you carry" are three of the more common questions you will encounter.
16) Will I get harassed by the general public for open carry?
Reports from open carriers across the state indicate that harassment by the general public is a rare occurrence.
17) What do I say if someone asks me "why" I am open carrying?
This is a personal issue. My advice is to simply answer truthfully and politely. Example: "I carry a handgun for self defense and defense of my family. Thanks for asking." You may be surprised that the person asking does not have a problem with your open carry but may be genuinely curious. They may be another gun owner or even concealed carrier that has not open carried.
18) I want to open carry but am nervous. Can I open carry with you sometime to help me over my anxiety?
Seems like an odd question but I have been asked this personally. If you would like to try OC but do not feel comfortable doing it on your own check out PAFOA.org discussion forums ("concealed and open carry" section) and opencarry.org discussion forums for upcoming "open carry dinners" and "OC meet and greets". These are held periodically around the state as a way for open carriers to socialize as well as be a conduit for folks new to OC to open carry with a group of mentors.
19) Why would anyone open carry when it will likely scare people? Are you just showing off?
Many people have the perception that open carry will be viewed with fear by the non gun owning community. Luckily, from my and other open carriers' personal experiences, society is typically not bothered by open carry. Most people don't even notice. The ones that do simply don't seem to care.
As for "showing off". While people will surely "show off" for any sort of reason, that type of attitude is not common in the open carry community. Many of us do it more than we would have for just reasons of "comfort", as an example, for the purposes of helping improve the image of gun owners/carriers in general. In other words, to help put the image of normal everyday folk carrying guns back into society.
20) What do I do if someone calls the police on me for open carrying?
As a general rule I would recommend handling a police encounter the same as you would for any other police encounter. Be polite, articulate and do not touch your sidearm or make suspicious movement. If you are inclined to refuse "consent" to show ID (when not legally required) or refuse an unlawful request such as to "conceal" your firearm when not required to, always remember that you can refuse "consent" but you should never refuse to "comply". Refusal to comply with an unlawful command (on the LEO's part) can make a bad situation much, much worse in a big hurry. Politely refuse consent but never refuse to comply. Most law enforcement officers in PA are aware of the legality of open carry but may not understand the technicalities of permits, etc.
I've never had a daughter. Will someone please tell me what the "10 yo daughter rule" is.