Chris wrote:flintknapper wrote:
Chris,
Thank You, for your input.
I respectfully disagree that night sights are anything like "useless", but as I stated earlier they are best utilized under certain conditions.
I don't know what kind of NS you used but mine are very bright. A good example of when they can be of benefit.. is when you are in a darker portion of the environment than your target. Obviously, you need to be able to identify your target AND see it well enough to put the front sight on it. For those with night sights, go into a dark (or fairly dark room) and look into another room that has some amount of residual light, judge for yourself.
You didn't mention if you had any "help" on the house/warehouse "clearing", I hope so. Its foolish (at best) to attempt a dynamic clearing without a 3 to 1 advantage (if you can call it that). Night sights, or the lack thereof, would be the last thing on my mind in that situation.
As for tactics, unless they're unlawful...please feel free to share them. We can all benefit from someone else's knowledge. Unless you have very specialized training, its not likely that sharing it here will be a problem.
Thanks again for your perspective, and your service.
Flint.
many times there were two of us; on occasion, i was alone. in some areas you just don't have the luxury of having someone with you. i've been through everything from houses, wharehouses, and office buildings, to entire schools. most of the time i found nothing, but i've stumbled across people inside more than i prefer. sometimes they knew i was there, others they didn't until i found them. searching stuff by yourself is scary. finding someone searching by yourself is worse. i once searched a used car lot that had about 15-20 abandoned trailer houses behind it. i KNEW there were at least 2 people in the immediate area. i had a dead handheld radio and nearest assist was 25 miles away, but they were tied up. THAT sucks. i almost killed one of those damn cowboy silhouettes that leans up against the wall. when it refused to comply, i was fully prepared to shoot it until i got close enough behind cover to see what it was. no rollercoaster in the world compares to that feeling. fortunately for me, i scared those two off into the woods, rather than find them in an ambush. they slipped into the woods and ended up stealing a car about two miles down the road. irritated me off that i didn't find them, but probably best that way.
i've used meprolights and trijicons. i've used green dots, and a combination of red/green. the dots are just too small to really recognize. trust me when i say that you aren't paying any attention to the sights when things are bad enough to be pointing a gun at someone; particularly those tiny little dots. if you're willing to pay the extra money for another gadget, why not? there's nothing wrong with them, i just haven't seen that they give me any sort of practical advantage that point shooting doesn't cover. most people don't practice running away and shooting behind them. when you see a gun, you're not going to stand there like wyatt earp with them. you're going to be shooting while you run to get behind something. i've done a lot of side stepping for cover. i see all those range people doing their quick draw mcgraws and a double tap. when it goes down, it's probably going to take more than 2 shots, so it's probably not a good idea to just practice two at a time. mix it up. shoot 4 or 5. that's probably what the person you're shooting at is going to do, and that hesitation might be enough to be the end of you. you would be surprised with some of the crap that cops do because they're trained that way. if you get a jam, don't raise your hand and stand there like a fool waiting on someone to help you. fix it and keep shooting. i know of people that have been witness to that very thing in the midst of a shooting.
now what i have found to be somewhat useful (as ironic as it may seem) is a monster of a fiber optic tube on the end of my shotgun. when there is enough light to see your target, there is enough light to make that thing stick out like a sore thumb. for a police application, i've used that setup on felony stops where i have a lot of light flooding the area. strobes make that little fiber optic dot flash at you too. in a typical joe citizen encounter, you're looking at primarily defensive. police, you could have defensive and offensive. i pull a shotgun on a felony stop because i'm going to make a lot of threats to get people to do what i want them to. that's a circumstance where i have time to watch the front sight. plus it's a long gun. a pistol really is nothing more than a defensive tool.
as far as tactics, there are things i just don't want to share. but there are some things that can help you on room clearing. take bathroom stalls. if you shine your light on the floor under a stall, look up at the ceiling. you'll see the shadows. if anyone's in there, you'll see them before you open the door. doing a building search isn't "dynamic". that's what swat does. those guys like to do things quick and flashy. it's best to be patient when searching a building. if you were going into a room that had hostages, and the goal was to eliminate targets, "dynamic" is what you want. you want as many cops in that room and as fast as possible. swat tactics emphasize room domination. one guy runs to the center and the others come up on the sides. you dominate the room. in a building search, it's best to stay behind cover, and against the walls in the shadows. an officer i know on his very first building search went into a business. he swears he never heard the pop, but he did hear the whiz of the bullet going by. another friend of mine silhouetted himself against a glass wall shortly before it shattered with gunfire. if you open a door. stand against the wall nearest the door knob. if someone's going to shoot when the door opens, they'll shoot as the door starts to open out of that tiny opening. as long as you're not in that area, you're good to go. if you see cops knocking on someone's door, you'll see them standing a ways back from the door, but off to the side so if the door opens, the person inside would actually have to come out of the door in order to shoot them.
i hope i haven't butchered this thread too much. i've only been policing for 10 years, so i'm not even close to being good at this type of work, but i've picked up a few things along the way.
Agreed, searching/clearing by yourself is scary! Anything more than just a small room...and its nearly impossible to cover all the angles without exposing yourself at some point. Add "low light" into the equation and things get even tougher. You understand...I'm not advocating "dynamic" entry to anyone, quite the opposite of course. Some PD's have SWAT available to them for those times when things just can't wait, others do not. Even "Joe citizen" might be put in the unenviable position of having to rapidly enter a room/bldg. if a family member was in immediate danger.
My point was not to question or criticize your tactics, clearly...you have more than decent training. Rather, I wanted to point out that (especially) in low light conditions, you want all the advantages you can get. Many people who carry for defense have never had instruction on clearing a building...but I believe most understand: You NEVER want to do so, unless absolutely necessary.
The issue of "not seeing your sights" under stress is a reality. It it not impossible to do, but does require that you train yourself to do so. No argument that "point shooting" has its place. Naturally, accuracy degrades with distance and for most people it is probably not practical beyond 10 yds. if that much. At some point, it makes sense to look for that front sight, I know you'd agree.
If its already hard to notice your sights, then logic dictates that we use something to help attract the eye. White dots are popular (they work), fiber optics seem to help as well. For the same reason, does it not make sense to have GOOD night sights for low light?
Now, you and I both know that under stress, or when time is short, we tend to fixate on the threat. Personally, I don't think that is altogether bad. If it occurs to the point that you lose all peripheral vision or the ability to maintain a "ghost" sight picture, then there should be concern.
Again, it sort of suggests that something other than black sights might be beneficial.
If you practice enough that your muscle memory has you "right on" every time you push to the target....then my point is moot, and you have no need for sights of any kind. This will not apply to the majority of people however.
A very good point you raise...is the likelihood of your target moving. Probably, you will have no control over this. As concerns yourself, we do have control (if not otherwise restricted by environment or physical ability). For those with access to a range that allows shooting on the move, make it a point to practice shooting while moving laterally, advancing, retreating (especially retreating), shoot with one hand, weak hand. If moving targets are available, try them out.
When you say "people don't practice running away and shooting behind them", I take this to mean retreating (controlled) and possibly shooting as well. To literally "run" and hit your intended target is difficult, but I don't really know what they're teaching these days. For me, when its time to "run" I RUN! When I get to where I need to be, then its time to shoot.
Anyway, we have inadvertently changed the subject, but in the process I have learned something valuable from you. I'll probably never have to clear a bathroom stall
, but the concept of bouncing light (to produce a telltale shadow) is a great tip/tactic, I can already think of other applications.
Thanks, for your participation and contributions.
Flint.
