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longtooth wrote:Shootingstar, I doubt anyone here will be argumentative. You guys that shoot IPSC are not training for anyone shooting back at you or trying to stab you.:)

I have to agree with the above.

I think any kind of shooting is better than none, and much can be learned by shooting in any of the organized "clubs".

Personally, I quit shooting IPSC back in the late 80's when the "practical" part of it "got up and left". But, thats a discussion for another day.

As someone correctly pointed out, all of the most successful shooters in IPSC shoot Isosceles. This in no way proves it is superior to "Weaver" in regards to self defense. It would however, tend to support the idea that it makes for a solid shooting platform for "games". It also has some "real world" value in any situation that allows you to "square up" to your target.

Most people (with normal mobility) can also "turret" about 90 degrees to either side, giving effective coverage of about 180 degrees (on your front side). Under these circumstances, it is quick, stable, and provides good resistance to recoil. Take these circumstances away though, and we will need to take an honest look at how "versatile" it really is (or isn't).

And before someone points out that "Rob Leatham" shoots this "style", so... it must be the BEST, let me remind you that Rob Leatham, Brian Enos, Doug Koenig, Jerry Miculek...(and others), can shoot one handed...with both eyes closed, faster and more accurately than anyone reading here tonight. Isosceles, didn't make them champions, they just found it to be a useful tool for what they do.

IMO, Weaver or Modified Weaver offers more versatility, when you consider all of the variables of day to day life. It is a "fighting" posture that allows for very quick transitions to nearly any angle while retaining good balance. There is no doubt in my mind.. that it is better (for most people) when moving.

I shoot all three of the "styles" listed in the poll and more. No single style will be ideal under all circumstances. This is why I will respectfully disagree with the post that suggested it is "easy, body armor...Isosceles, without...Weaver". If you restrict yourself to one shooting style then you are like a Boxer with just one "good punch". When you meet up with your first "skilled" boxer, he's gonna clean your clock!

All of the shooting styles have their proper place and application. All have Pro's and Con's, merits and de-merits. I think the best anyone could hope to glean from these conversations is this: Try out several of the shooting styles, adopt those features of each... that YOU find beneficial for your personal defense strategy. And last.....HAVE A STRATEGY!


Good shooting & God Bless!

Paladin wrote:

Bubba wrote:And what position do you shoot from a vehicle ?
Moving ?
Parked ?
Something to think about because it poses another set of problems.

It seems like shooting to the rear from the passenger side is the most awkward. The driver's side is much more natural.

Agreed, drivers side (for righties) is much easier. But righties shooting out of the passenger side window are not "out of the fight".

For what its worth, here is how I do this one:

1. Just like from the drivers side (time permitting) we want to clear the seat belt, so we can move more freely. In this case, your weapon is not covered as badly by the seatbelt. (A coat, or other covering garment.. should always be pulled free of the seatbelt as soon as you put your belt on, so this shouldn't be a problem.) Still, we can release the belt a little easier from this side. In this case, you can reach down with your left hand, disengage the belt from the buckle and simply toss it toward your strong side. This allows you to start accessing your weapon right away, so you don't lose any time.

2. As in the other case, you'll need to lean forward a little bit to make getting to your weapon easier.

3. The draw is a little different, because we will be shooting one handed (yes... one handed beyond 2 O'Clock). Don't try to shoot weak hand (left hand) in this circumstance. When you draw, go ahead and meet your weak hand in a close quarters retention position. (pistol pointed straight ahead, both hands on the pistol, at a line just below the pectoral muscle).

4. The presentation: To shoot at your 1 and 2 O'Clock, simply "push" the weapon out the window at the target (using both hands) and Isosceles. Yup, I said Isosceles. ISO, in this case.. will give the best recoil control.

5. Now, from your 3 O'Clock back to your 5 O'Clock your best bet is to shoot "one handed" using the following technique: Begin your presentation (out the window) using both hands, cross your left foot over your right. At the point (roughly 2 O'Clock) that your shoulder begins to bind, let your weak side hand (palm flat) slide down the inside of your strong arm, as the strong arm swings toward the rear. Do not lose contact with your arm. The Strong side arm is a "highway" for the weak side hand to follow. Your weak side hand will end up slightly under the armpit of the strong side arm and act as support. "Cant" your gun arm to your left, about 15 degrees (this relaxes the shoulder and allows more extension to the rear). It also allows you to obtain a good sight picture while exposing the least amount of your head to the threat.

Give it a try, you'll be surprised how well you can shoot one handed this way. Recoil recovery will be slower one handed, and "limp wristing" can get you into trouble, so take a good grip.

Have fun.

Flint.

longtooth wrote: The same thing that maximizes LEO's body armor also maximizes my COM. .

Exactly, and a lot of people have never thought of this. ISO, presents a larger target to your foe than does the bladed stance of Weaver.

Conversely, "Weaver" increases the chance that you will be shot "LHL" (lung, heart, lung), not usually survivable. So.....its kind of give and take.

Anyway, I'll never make a blanket statement that one is absolutely the best.

I just know which is "best for me", most of the time.

longtooth wrote:. Now I need to practice draw & fire w/ a steering wheel in the way. One more thing I have learned since being here. Thanks Guys.

Seated position in a vehicle presents its own set of problems. If you need to shoot from the drivers position at angles ranging from your 10 O'Clock back to your 7 O'Clock then this is what I suggest: Assuming you are right handed (as you are), and you wear your weapon strong side (as you do), then here is one procedure to practice.

1. First, (time permitting)..you need to "clear the seatbelt". Leaving the seatbelt in place greatly hinders your ability to draw your weapon, and severely restricts body movement. This is how I do it: Use your left hand with the palm flat against your chest and slide it under (not over) the shoulder portion of the seatbelt. At the same time, use your right hand to release the belt (via button or whatever). This leaves your right hand very close to your weapon, and allows you to "sweep" the seatbelt out of your way with your left.

2. Now we're ready for our draw. If you wear your weapon at 3 O'Clock or beyond, you will find that your elbow is going to hit the "seat back" and stall your draw.. if you don't lean forward slightly. Keep your weak hand out in front of your chest for now.. (to guard against attack through the window). Grasp your weapon with your right hand and remove from holster. IMPORTANT: This is where most people "Cover/Sweep" themselves IF they don't do the following: See presentation.

3. Presentation, (in this instance)... is everything. Obviously, if you bring the weapon across your lap (muzzle down), you put yourself in grave danger. Likewise, if you attempt to keep the muzzle pointing straight ahead (or even up), and cross your lap, you risk hitting the steering wheel and could disrupt your grip.. or discharge the weapon.

4. The solution: Is to bring the weapon (in the strong hand only) over the top of the steering wheel (in an arc) where it meets your support hand. One other thing I want you to do, as you bring the gun over the steering wheel, cross your right foot over your left. This will allow you to pivot more on your rear end and be able to present the weapon toward your 7 O'Clock position without having to re-seat yourself (saves time).

This is best practiced in the actual vehicle you drive (gun unloaded of course), but it can also be "simulated" in any straight backed kitchen chair. You won't have the seat belt, but the "movement" can be practiced nonetheless.

I know it sounds like a lot of things to do at once. But give it a try, and I think you'll find it very "doable".

P.S. its important to get that seat belt off, if at all possible. And this position will definitely NOT be Isoseles.

Hope this helps.

Flint.

MoJo wrote:No "All of the above plus option?" I use whatever stance gets the job done. If strictly target shooting the Isosceles stance is my most common but in an IDPA match - - - whatever it takes to make the shot. In a gunfight I doubt I would be thinking of what stance I was using.

No pun intended, but...this is the same position I take.

More on this later.

Well, I figured this topic would generate some response.

I guess I'll "chip in" too, but not before making the disclaimer that I am by no means an expert on the subject. I will simply share my experiences and observations.

Just so we're all on the same page:

Weaver= Body "bladed" toward target with strong side shoulder and leg slightly behind weak side, and BOTH arms bent at the elbow.

Modified Weaver/Chapman= As above, (except the strong side arm is extended as far as possible).

Isosceles: Body "squared" to target, both arms fully extended and elbows locked, feet about shoulder width apart and directly under the hip, head and chest slightly forward of hip.

Modified Isosceles: As above (except weak side leg is moved slightly ahead of strong side leg...but with no "blading" of the body, and some allow for slight bending of the elbows).

Note: (Isosceles has taken on so many variants over the years that I can not cover them all, many do not adhere to the principles originally intended). I will let the "semanticist's" argue the finer points however.

Biomechanics of each stance (why they work):

Isosceles: Utilizes a skeleto-muscular support base more than isometric tension.

Weaver: Involves an isometric (push-pull) technique to achieve a stable platform.

Some things I like about Isosceles:

It is a simple gross motor skill, push both hands straight out in front of you, move your head and shoulders slightly in front of your hip...and you are there!

Eye dominance is pretty much irrelevant, the weapon is centered in relation to the torso, so... a slight shift of the head is all that is needed to attain a sight picture if you're "cross dominant".

If you're LEO, it maximizes the effectiveness of your body armor by not exposing the opening under the armpit.

For many people, it gives less shake or "gun tremor", because it does not rely upon muscle tone as much as Weaver does. It is a skeleto-muscular platform that is employed. Not everyone has strong muscles (especially women), but...everyone has bones!

It doesn't depend on foot position, so it takes advantage of our natural (initial) response to "square up" to a threat.

It is clearly faster... when responding to a gun side flank (strong side).

Now, for some things I don't like about Isosceles:

Slower when responding to your weak side flank (weak side), you'll find that as you "turret", you will begin to stall at about your 9 O'Clock (for a right handed person).

Slower for cross body draws, and most strong side rigs without a "break front" design. It loses out to the shorter "arc of the draw" created by the Weaver stance that does not extend the weapon as far. (not saying it is slow, just not as fast)

Shooters with Arthritis, Bursitis, elbow or shoulder injuries may not be able to use this technique at all, or it may be painful to do so (Isosceles depends on forward weight to combat recoil).

Heavy or restrictive clothing may not allow full extension of the arms. What was "working great" in a Tee-Shirt, might not pan out in your winter coat.

IMO, it is not the best technique for shooting on the move. Yes, I know all of the famous "gamesmen" can do it with light loads, and many hours of practicing a smooth heel to toe advance. But for the average person, it extends the hands/arms/gun the maximum distance from the body. This usually means less control in terms of "bounce" when moving much faster than a slow walk.

O.K., if you're still with me....I am going to stop for tonight. Maybe we'll look at Weaver (and what I do and don't like about it tomorrow). But for now, let me have your own opinions/rebuttals.

Be kind!

Flint.

You left out modified Isosceles.

I shoot all of them depending upon the circumstance.

Primarily, I shoot some form of "Weaver", because I believe it to be more versatile.

I will check back here after work. I suspect this topic will generate much discussion. I will be happy to submit my own opinions, but don't have the time to do so now.

There are many Pro's and Con's, some are universally true, others depend upon the physical characteristics of the shooter, and the dynamics of the situation at hand.

I'll be back.