TexasCHLforum.com

Ranger+P+ wrote:Jbirds--thanks for stepping out. For those who are near Lufkin, I would be glad to train with you in any area.

-Steve

Steve

I live about 20 miles from Lufkin...and several other members live in (or around) Lufkin as well.

I would love to get together some time and exchange ideas on empty hands techniques. You and I are in complete agreement concerning the likelihood of CHL holders needing these skills just to get to their weapon.

Let me know when you have some free time and we'll try to get together if you have any interest.

Thanks,

Flint.

Ranger+P+ wrote:Flintknapper

Let me be clear. I want advanced training (including retention training) to be available in a progressive plan, after a CHL has been issued. I am not trying to make it harder for people to get a CHL--I am advocating the need for folks to get better training because they need it on so many levels. So many get complacent after the CHL is obtained, they lull themselves into a state that is not reality. Trust me on this--training is a lifestyle, not something you do once a month or once every four years! I apologize for not making myself clear--I am 100% behind right to carry, but being in a proffession that does not forgive error, I am always challenging myself and others.

Stay Safe.

I thought advanced training was already available.

Ranger, we are on the "same page" as concerns training, I think it is a good thing....but the amount (and what type) must ultimately be decided by the person trying to defend themselves.

I recognize your Profession is unforgiving and intense. I suspect it is difficult not to project that into everyday life. Occasionally.. we have someone come through the Dojo who is fresh out of the military and it is a challenge to get the "gung ho" out of them long enough to teach them "street techniques".

Their training and mindset is both appropriate and necessary for survival on the battlefield, but is sometimes a stumbling block when they get back home.

Those who have trained to a high level and live every minute with the "warrior" spirit naturally notice the deficiencies in the general gun toting populace. Often times they are eager to point this out...and generally maintain that everyone is only one step away from certain death... if they don't get "X" amount of training. Of course, this would be true in your environment.

I truly believe you are here only to help share some of what you know (as it might apply to civilian life) and not here to simply show us all you know (there are plenty of warrior forums for that).

Please do not take offense if some us have questions or differing opinions.

Thank you for your contributions and I hope you will continue.

Flint.

Ranger+P+ wrote:Seamus

I in no way am trying to give ammo to the anti-RKBA, my point however, and I am sure any cops in here will back me up--if you carry a gun, you need to know how to handle an attempted gun grab--it is part of being armed. Concealed or not. Granted--I do carry a gun for a living, but I am also a CHL holder, and I drill on a very simple counter to a gun grab I am sure the LEO in this forum are familiar with: The Pin & Spin. If you are intersted Seamus, I would be glad to show or describe this counter to you--it is simple and effective.
Stay Safe.

It's great to have some skills (any skills) above and beyond what a person currently knows.

I would like to point however, that the "pin and spin" was developed to address "one" certain type of gun snatching and is a very old (and good) Lindell technique. It also assumes the snatch attempt is coming from behind or just off the side, but can be used in other situations as well. You "hope" to pin the offending hand before the person can withdraw your weapon from the holster, but this doesn't always work unless you have totally committed the "pin" to muscle memory.

If all goes well.. you end up with the snatcher in a bent wrist lock IF he grabbed at your weapon with the same strong side hand. Otherwise you end up (maybe) with an outside wrist lock that is easily countered by stepping back 45 deg. and straightening the arm. So, lets hope he doesn't grab it with his weak side hand. You will have no way of knowing this (if he is behind you) until you pin his hand.

Attacks and disarms come in so many forms that teaching just a "few" techniques will not prove very useful. Then consider...that many of us "carry" in positions other than strong side....and well......

That is why I recommend each person seek out instruction geared to their method of carry and their ability to perform the technique. There is no "one size fits all" training IMO.

texasgirl wrote:

I would be glad to show or describe this counter to you--it is simple and effective.

I think I saw Massad Ayoob show how to do this on Personal Defense TV (Action Plan is my favorite part of the show). I took a one day Krav Maga women's self defense class a few months back and asked the instructor about it. He was going to show me at the end of the class (I was the only one with a CHL) but I was so tired I forgot by the end of the day. If you have direction and maybe a diagram that would be great.

I think it very smart of you to seek out this type of training on a individual level and I hope you will follow through.

Some thoughts about doing it otherwise:

The problem with trying to teach gun retention techniques at the CHL level are many.

The CHL instructor would have to be well trained (and physically fit) in order to learn and teach the myriad of techniques.

The instructor would need to devote hours to each student in order to teach even remedial techniques.

Techniques vary widely based upon whether you are protecting from a "drawn" position or from your holster.

There are techniques that address a person "stalling" your draw (hand on your hand/other). Techniques that address a snatching (where the persons hand is on your weapon), and everything in between.

Most techniques are borrowed from the law enforcement community, meaning that they are geared toward a OWB strong side rig. You'll be hard pressed to find someone teaching techniques for shoulder carry, appendix carry, etc....so the instructor better be pretty good.

Then we have to consider if the student is even "physically" capable of performing the technique.

To make this a "requirement" rather than leaving the additional training up to the CHL holder would be a mistake IMO. Trying to apply a requirement such as this across the demographic make up of CHL applicants just isn't practical.

We have folks ranging in age from 21 all the way into their 80's. We have extreme spreads in terms of physical limitations among any age group. Handgun retention and take away techniques "can" work well when applied to groups such as "Military", "LEO" and the like. As a prerequisite to their training...they must meet certain physical fitness requirements ( a select group, if you will).

Now, I hope no one will think I am trying to discourage anyone from seeking out additional training. Nothing could be further from the truth. I just think it should be sought out by the individual...and then taught to them with their particular abilities/disabilities in mind.

Ranger+P+ wrote:It looks like the good folks in this forum took me wrong--I am in no way wanting to make it harder for folks to get their CHL, me of all people is one the biggest advocate of 2nd ammendment rights. I applaud the boards quick response to my suggestion, however, I am on your side and I feel you misunderstood me. In my previous post, I stated I would like to see a curriculum laid out for the CHL holder to follow AT THEIR OWN PACE to improve their skills. Believe me, if it were up to me, I would want all people over the age of 21 to be armed, including college students to carry on State University grounds. Simply put, the need for advanced training needs to be pushed because I have seen personally people who think just because they carry a firearm, they have nothing else to worry about--NOT TRUE. That is all I was saying.

You also must understand in my line of work, training is a way of life--I see so many armed citizens and friends of mine who really have no clue other than punching hole in paper on the weekends-- and that is what concerns me. II hope you guys udnerstand where I am coming from.

Stay Safe.

I guess I’m still confused (not hard to do). I admit.. my comprehensive reading skills often leave something to be desired, but your post (as written) seems to imply a “requirement�.

Ranger+P+ wrote:

For a long time now, I have been a proponent of a better training curriculum in order to get your CHL.

Then in your next post:

In my previous post, I stated I would like to see a curriculum laid out for the CHL holder to follow AT THEIR OWN PACE to improve their skills

So, I still don’t understand if you are advocating this skill set be required “prior� to issuance of a CHL or simply material to study on your own.. apart from the course?

Ranger+P+ wrote:For a long time now, I have been a proponent of a better training curriculum in order to get your CHL.

I respectfully disagree.

There is plenty of "training" available outside the curriculum of CHL.... that people may pursue.

The object of the Texas CHL standards (Probably the most stringent of the states) is to require a reasonable "minimum" of skills in order to pass. In thus doing, the largest number of people will pass and be allowed to add a much needed level of force to their personal defense plan.

Yes, everyone should be strongly encouraged to seek out additional training and information. But, to require that folks learn (and possibly demonstrate) retention techniques, etc...is to segregate the physically fit from those who are not. I believe both groups are entitled to protect themselves.

I think a better answer would be for training institutes to offer discounted courses for those with CHL's and let them get "real" training (to the degree that they are physically able).

There are several of us here capable of teaching basic disarms and retention of both handguns and long-arms. Perhaps in the future a seminar of some sort might be put together to teach those interested in learning some basic techniques.

But, personally....I will not support anything that makes it more difficult for the average person to get his/her CHL.


Just my .02