TexasCHLforum.com

Excaliber wrote: Skiprr is also right on about the magic wand. Not all criminals are intimidated at the sight of a gun, especially within grabbing distance, and even solid K-zone hits are not reliable instant fight stoppers. You may still end up fending off or fighting hand to hand with someone you've shot until blood loss weakens him.

Again with the magic wand... sheesh. I have no thought whatsoever that the gun will scare anyone away. Instead, my opinion is that brandishing is likely to bring out the best that your opponent has (if he hasn't already brought his full force into the fight before that). My prep is based on the idea that when/if I bring a firearm into view, the BG will be firing/stabbing/punching/beating or whatever immediately upon viewing my firearm, realizing that it's now him or me.

I'm pretty clear on all this. I figure if I shoot a deer at 100 yards and deliver ~2000 ft.lb of energy to an animal of about 150 lbs, with an exit wound the size of my fist, and they run 50-75 yards before they die, then shooting a person with this pea-shooter (.40 or .45) and delivering maybe 500 ft.lb of energy isn't gonna make them suddenly keel over, unless you hit them in a very vital region (e.g. brain or spinal cord). I'm under no impression that I can just shoot once and re-holster and walk away.

Sure hope all this prep and thoughts of possible scenarios is for naught and I never get in one of these situations. But if I do, I plan to be as prepared as possible. Appreciate everyone's input (well, maybe not re: my magic wand, but otherwise...). Also, I didn't respond, but the person who recommended formal training is appreciated as well. Don't know when I'll get the time/money to do it, but would sure like to.

Skiprr wrote: My earlier point about the draw had nothing to do with speed, but with surety. A quarter-second here or a half-second there actually makes little difference in most real-world situations. My post was based on your own opinion that your belly-band carry method was awkward and insecure.

On the street, history shows us that the odds of having to draw a gun on a threat even 20 feet away are relatively slim. Outside your home, unless you're caught in a gang shooting crossfire or a mall shooting type of situation, the odds are your attacker will not be truly identified as an attacker until he is less than 10 feet from you...probably less than six feet.

Good points. I will do more dry-fire practice to get a better handle (pun intended) on the security of the draw from the belly band while also paying attention to the time req'd to rack the slide. I understand the distance of most encounters will be <20 ft. The purpose in shooting at that distance is as a worst-case scenario. I guess shooting at shorter distances, though not helping me train for accuracy, might help me focus on the pertinent parameters (more about a secure, speedy, sure draw and less about real "aiming").

Skiprr wrote: A gun is not a magic wand.

Having one doesn't automatically make the bad guys go away.

WHAT!!!!!???? If I'd known this, I wouldn't have spent all that money on the gun and class and all. I'm pretty sure someone told me it was a magic wand and bad guys would be repelled by my shield of gun-ness. Maybe you should double-check this and make sure, since I'm pretty sure mine's a magic wand.

bdickens wrote:What are you planning on doing when you need your other hand for something else?

I don't know about "needing it for something else," but if it is not available, I'll have to make up a new plan, or else get it loose. Same as any of us if we had both hands not available. Or if you have your strong-side hand not available and can't reach your carry position with your weak hand. Life is full of hazards.

This is one of the best arguments for keeping on in the pipe though, I concede.

mr.72 wrote:Hate to tell you SlowDave but I think you may need a smaller pistol as well as an $80 holster.

Anyway I was surprised how well my Sigma conceals with my Crossbreed, and it's a tuckable holster. I don't know where you are located, but you would be welcome to try my old Crossbreed. The new ones are more adjustable. I almost never use it since I carry the Kahr nearly all the time. I wish I had one for my Kahr!

FWIW I didn't change the size of my jeans in order to carry. But with the Kahr and the FIST ultra-thin Kydex holster, the jeans are just a bit more snug than they are without it.

Smaller pistol... I've considered that. Issue is, it seems the main dimension that gives me difficulty is the thickness, and that is only cured by getting away from a double-stack, which I'm not real comfortable with (lower capacity), but I guess I could consider. Also not very common (single-stack) in my preferred .40 S&W. Bigger issue: if I'm too cheap for a drawerful of $80 holsters, imagine my reluctance to spend another $500-$1000 for a second pistol. Do you have recommendations?

PM sent with my location. That'd be great if I could try yours.

bdickens wrote:I tell ya, SlowDave, you really need to try racking the slide in some kind of controlled drill and see how that works out for you. I'm willing to bet it doesn't.

I have tried it, depending on what you mean by "controlled drill". And it works pretty well. It takes me longer to get on target (at 20ft) than anything else. The time to rack the slide is minimal in comparison, but it is still >0. Also, if it's a point-blank situation, then no time to get on target and the racking time becomes a bigger portion of the time. Does require 2 hands though.

Next time out, I'll have someone time me and get the actual time difference between one already in the chamber vs. me having to rack the slide and I'll report back my findings. I estimate ~1/4 second difference, but would be good to have the data.

bdickens wrote:I know you didn't want to hear this, but it really is true: a gun that isn't loaded is just a club. As a practical matter, if you don't have a round in the chamber the gun really isn't loaded.

I strongly disagree. I give you the option in a fight of a gun with a full magazine but nothing in the chamber or one that is completely empty. Your statement is that these are identically capable of self-defense. I submit they're not (unless you limit the fight to a certain set of possible circumstances). If it's "just a club" then the empty one is equally capable, so you'll be happy to take that one right? Just say what you really mean: a pistol with one in the chamber is much more ready to be brought to your defense than one without one in the chamber (which I agree with). Don't exaggerate that to destroy your own argument.

Thanks for all the input. Addressing a few of the topics:
When I referred to a public place, I wasn't thinking of a bank robbery. Don't assume I'm a *complete* idiot. Since I go to the bank at least every 5 years... okay, 8, it's fairly unlikely that I'm gonna stumble into a bank robbery. On the other hand, I get gas all the time and convenience stores are fairly common targets, so I'm thinking of something like that. And I think that's worth consideration in the realm of situations in which I'm most likely to need a gun.

I realize an IWB would be a much quicker draw. However, I don't really think I can carry that way. I don't know how others do it, so maybe I should talk more and try some. But I personally require very good concealment and IWB doesn't seem to offer that. When I've tried, I need a bigger pair of pants, and there's a large lump where my gun is. I can't imagine a setup where it's comfortable to sit, so driving is an issue. The belly band, worn high, puts the gun under my arm, above the waistband, where it's pretty much undetectable. It might not be the best draw, but it's way better than when the gun is not with me. I really have to stretch to come up with a situation where the extra couple of tenths of a second of racking the slide is going to make a significant difference. But it could potentially happen, so...

As to the safety of the shotgun with one in the chamber: it's under the bed in a case with the zipper open. I'm not too afraid of it going off by itself with the safety on, and if it does, it blows a load of buckshot into the wallboard and maybe into the bricks beyond. If I pick it up to use it, I'm gonna be holding it for a lot shorter period and with much less chance of dropping or banging it than I do when I hunt with it. I would, on the other hand, be quite averse to carrying it around in that manner during all my waking hours.

I appreciate all the input, and am interested in trying an IWB that is good, but I don't really want to pay $80 or more to "try" one. Are there stores, or gun shows, or some event where I can try before I buy? Guess I'd have to wear my way the heck too big pants to the event, but I guess I could blow $30 in hopes that I'd find something that didn't feel (and look) like I had a rock in my waistband, even if I can't imagine it exists.

So, I guess I'm open to recommendations as to IWB holsters. I typically wear some kind of Dockers and button up shirt (started wearing an undershirt to accomodate the belly band), and untucked shirt is not an option nor is a jacket for 10 months of the year. It'd be nice if it also worked on weekends with shorts or jeans and a t-shirt, but I could make something else work for that if I had to. Another nicety would be if it were actually made for a Sigma (i.e. Comptac products are out, as far as I know).

Thanks again everyone!

CainA wrote:I'll add to Mr.72...

You typically need two hands to rack a slide, right? The situation may arise where you don't have 2 hands free, but only one. And hopefully it's your gun hand.

-Cain

Well, *either* is my gun hand in a pinch.

This is a very serious consideration. Would suck to be able to get to your gun but only have one hand available. That could be the deciding factor. Hmmm...

First, great thanks to Mr. 72 and others for clear, thoughtful responses. You have given me some things to think about. Let's see...

mr.72 wrote:<snip>These guns have a long, deliberate, and rather heavy trigger pull. It would be exceedingly difficult to get the trigger to pull while the gun is being carried, and I think it would be absolutely impossible if the gun is carried in a decent holster that covers the trigger. The gun is holstered with no tension on the striker so even in the event of a malfunction, it will not fire. You have to pull the trigger all the way back to get it to fire, period.

So the question is, what risk are you concerned about with carrying your Sigma chambered?

I do appreciate the long, heavy trigger pull of the Sigma in this respect. The belly band I use most covers the trigger, but it's not all that secure. And I wear it high, so removal from the holster is awkward. I could imagine getting a finger on the trigger accidentally and that could result in a negligent discharge, but hard to imagine with THAT trigger. But maybe with 1/2 gallon of adrenaline... I don't worry about accidental firing it after it's drawn or someone else getting the gun. It's more on the draw or something besides my finger getting in the trigger guard. When I carry in a fanny pack, it's unholstered, but the only thing in the pack. Again, not likely, but somewhat distantly possible. Maybe an unreasonable caution?

mr.72 wrote: OK, now from a practical matter, you asked if we could describe a situation where you wouldn't have time to rack the slide. Frankly when I run scenarios in my mind where I would ever have to use a gun, I can think of very few where I would have time to rack the slide on a pistol. If I have that much time, I have enough time to get away without shooting, in most cases. In fact, most circumstances where I think you would need a gun, I think you will be lucky to have enough time to draw. The very reason I am carrying a gun is because of these split second situations where escape is not an option and I only have seconds to defend my life. So I chose guns, holsters, and carry methods that are compatible with my philosophy: my gun needs to go bang as fast as I can get it drawn and pull the trigger.

I guess we're looking at pretty much the same situations and making different conclusions. I see a guy standing there with a gun pointed at me with his finger on the trigger at 6' away, and I think, no way am I pulling a gun at that moment, 'cause there's no way I'm getting one off before he does and I'm just insuring that I'll get shot. You see the same situation and conclude that you can't possibly stand the time for racking the slide if you're gonna have any tiny chance of getting a shot off in time.

mr.72 wrote: Let's just look at what are the most common self-defense scenarios that may involve your use of a gun, which would include aggravated assault, robbery, or burglary.

I consider situations where I'm in public and there is a general threat or someone else is being threatened and I don't already have the full concentration (and aim) of the BG. Or in the robbery situation, I'll wait until he turns or directs his attention to someone else, or something, rather than guarantee that I'll take a bullet immediately. He may not, and I may get shot, but drawing at that point has very little chance, so I think I'd risk hoping for a better opportunity. Are these unreasonable situations/approaches?

In the home under a burglarly is where I most don't like the thought of having to rack the slide because it gives away my position which was formerly unknown. But there's also a shotgun which already has one in the chamber for that purpose.

mr.72 wrote: Maybe you are knocked to the ground, punched, or already at gunpoint. It's not "seconds count", but fractions of a second can be the difference. I don't think you will have time to rack the slide and you will be fortunate to have time to draw and fire.

I agree that I would be fortunate to have time to draw and fire. At this time, I'm not real comfortable with escalating the situation on the hopes of being fortunate.

mr.72 wrote: I am sure Excaliber and others will step in and correct me where I am wrong. This topic gets discussed here and on other gun forums quite frequently, but I still think it is important to talk about.

I agree and appreciate your very helpful post. I'm not expecting the "Jimmy the Tulip" example, but also don't think I would draw when someone already has me at gunpoint. I'd be interested to know if the group feels that drawing in that situation is a good idea (seriously). You have given me some things to consider though. For example, in a robbery or assault, if the BG gets distracted for just a moment or goes to another victim, it might provide enough time to have a reasonable chance of getting a shot off *if there's one in the chamber* but not otherwise. Also need to think about the level of risk of carrying with one in the chamber. An emotional "feeling" about the level of safety is really not sufficient. But it's hard to quantify the risk level of various approaches. Thanks for the input!

Well, I guess I'm gonna be in the minority here, but just in case others are thinking they're the only one... S&W Sigma .40, full mag, empty chamber. Mostly in a belly band, but sometimes OWB if it's cold enough for a cover coat or fanny pack in front if in shorts and t-shirt.

Long-time hunter and just not comfortable with a gun needing only the trigger pulled to go off when it is at times, pointed in the direction of my own flesh. Maybe one day I'll wish I had carried it with one in the chamber, maybe not. To each his own.

My thoughts are that I can rack one about as quickly as I can get on target anyway, and the minimal time-savings of not having to rack the slide is not worth the increased risk of carrying loaded to me. To those who carry with one in the pipe, can you discuss (honestly and factually) what are the driving factors or scenarios you envision that make this most critical. I'm looking to be persuaded (or not), not for tag lines (like "if it's not loaded, it's a club not a gun"). I really don't see me drawing in a situation where speed is that critical as that's too fair of a fight for my tastes. I THINK I would wait for an opportunity where the odds for me to win the fight are a bit better. The risk of course is that better opportunity might not come and I might die while waiting for it. But I also might die trying to win in a fair fight, so...

Please, good non-emotional arguments, not hyperbole.