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Skiprr wrote:

Excaliber wrote:The folks I referred to used their empty chamber technique at all distances, from contact on out. They insist it's essential to prevent ND's.

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It should be kept in mind that most of the pistol engagements for these military folks are offensive - as in eliminating an assigned target . However, their doctrine does not vary whether the application is offensive or defensive.

I'm coming in late, but I believe that it's also worth mentioning that these same operatives have, for at least three decades, also trained in systems that directly integrate firearms handling, blade use, and empty-hand combatives techniques. That's partly the spec-ops-type nature of their roles. That's something that's ocurring more now in this country among LEOs and civilians, and I think's it's partly because of so many trained military operators returning to take civilian and police jobs over the course of the past decade. Prior to the early-90s or so, I believe it was fairly rare for a police department to fully integrate small arms and martial arts; they typically treated them as two separate things. Excaliber will certainly know better than I.

But the short of it is that, at close distances and all else being equal, I'd rather face someone trained with a pistol but not hand-to-hand combatives, than someone who is trained integrating both skills...even if I may disagree with the efficiency of certain aspects of the training. Another aside is that Excaliber mentioned the racking of the slide with the pistol held parallel to the ground; also worth observing is that this takes place with both hands meeting close to the center of the chest, not with the offhand reaching over to the gun-side. So there is ECQ application planned into the application.

Back to our regularly scheduled program.

It's true that defensive tactics and firearms were taught separately for many years. They started to come together a bit when an emphasis on weapon retention techniques was taught, and have developed into a much tighter integration since then.

Skiprr is correct that the technique I referred to earlier employs a slide rack close to and centered in front of the chest, which takes much less movement and is significantly faster than one which requires reaching over the slide. It's also done as a gross motor movement with a "cup" of the hand rather than with a thumb-and-forefinger "slingshot" technique.

chasfm11 wrote:

Excaliber wrote:

austinrealtor wrote:

C-dub wrote:

redlin67 wrote:I thought my instructor was excellent. His thing was that the first sound that a potential threat would hear is the sound of the safety being clicked off.

What did he have to say about Glocks?

If you watch enough TV and movies, you'll soon learn that even a Glock must be cocked before every tough guy speech

Although in many cases the slide rack is done for dramatic effect on folks who don't know anything about handguns, it also might have something to do with which country the film's technical consultant came from. The highly professional elite operators of one of our close allies carry their Glocks chamber empty and execute a slide rack / chamber load maneuver during the draw / presentation cycle. These folks are emphatic about thinking we're reckless carrying with chamber loaded.

I don't agree with them on this point, but after seeing them use their technique I wouldn't stand downrange and try to outdraw and outshoot one of these guys either - I'd probably lose.

That is interesting. How do they handle close quarters/retention shooting type situations? It certainly appears that their use of their guns has to be determined beyond the 21 foot circle. If I understood correctly, we as regular citizens were much more likely to face a BG close in rather than out at both hands extended range. I've always been curious if there was any statistics for non-LEOs regarding proximity. Without stats, anecdotal input would be great.

The folks I referred to used their empty chamber technique at all distances, from contact on out. They insist it's essential to prevent ND's.

I saw several issues with requiring two hands to use the weapon, introducing multiple additional and unnecessary potential points of failure, and extending the time required to fire the first shot, but they insisted it works for them.

Another interesting point is that their doctrine executes the initial slide rack maneuver with the side of the slide parallel to the floor. Does that ring any bells with some of the stuff you see in the movies and in gangbanger imitations on the street? The pros don't fire the gun in this position, but in the movies, it seems this small point sometimes gets lost in the translation.

It should be kept in mind that most of the pistol engagements for these military folks are offensive - as in eliminating an assigned target . However, their doctrine does not vary whether the application is offensive or defensive. Their combat record is extraordinary, so I have no reason to doubt that the system works for them, but I still wouldn't adopt a technique that I see as fundamentally flawed.

To answer your distance question, handgun engagements are almost always close in affairs because at extended distances, there are usually better options available. The short distance expectation is particularly true for non LEO's who rarely encounter situations where they have justification to use deadly force beyond across the room distances. Street encounters tend to take place within a couple of feet of arms length (both closer and further).

austinrealtor wrote:

C-dub wrote:

redlin67 wrote:I thought my instructor was excellent. His thing was that the first sound that a potential threat would hear is the sound of the safety being clicked off.

What did he have to say about Glocks?

If you watch enough TV and movies, you'll soon learn that even a Glock must be cocked before every tough guy speech

Although in many cases the slide rack is done for dramatic effect on folks who don't know anything about handguns, it also might have something to do with which country the film's technical consultant came from. The highly professional elite operators of one of our close allies carry their Glocks chamber empty and execute a slide rack / chamber load maneuver during the draw / presentation cycle. These folks are emphatic about thinking we're reckless carrying with chamber loaded.

I don't agree with them on this point, but after seeing them use their technique I wouldn't stand downrange and try to outdraw and outshoot one of these guys either - I'd probably lose.