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Kythas wrote:
ClarkLZeuss wrote:Throwing my hat into the ring here (in response to the original scenario). One idea I thought of would be to quietly draw my weapon and hold in under the table while the BGs are walking around grabbing wallets. I think I could hold it so that it wouldn't be visible from above (by the BGs) but may be visible from the side (by GGs), especially if I am on the end of a table. Then, what I would do is look around for other people who look not scared, but angry, and hopefully find another CHLer or a plainclothes cop. I would motion with my eyes to my gun, and then to the BG that I intend to shoot, then either let him/her pick a target in a similar manner or else I assign one. I'd then signal to attack on 3, then count to 3, then attack in unison. This, I think, would prove much more effective against a gang robbery, to have 2 of their number go down at the same time, with more coming. I think it has a good chance to scare the others away, for having even one other ally makes the surprise attack seem that much more menacing.

Of course, all the usual disclaimers apply. I don't know whether I'd actually be able to do this or whether I'd just keep sitting there, hoping they won't come by my table or hurt me. I don't know if I'd be angry and determined enough to act, or too scared to think. I don't know if I'd be able to find another CHLer, who's willing to act, or for that matter a plainclothes or off-duty cop, and even if I did, they might want to do things differently or otherwise take the lead. And I don't know whether a counterattack really would scare off the remaining live gang members. As that video of the bar shootout in Illinois demonstrates, some of these guys love a good firefight. (Course, in that case, the motivation to fight may have had to do more with alcohol or honor, rather than rapid cash acquisition). So, as others have said, I of course have no idea if this little idea of mine would work out.

But I figure, having a plan, or at least the workings of one, couldn't hurt.
Remember this - no battle plan survives contact with the enemy.

That's why one plans for contingencies. While no real fight ever goes exactly as anticipated, contingencies and backup plans thought of and rehearsed beforehand can be successfully brought into play as needed to achieve victory.

He who goes into a fight without a plan hands the initiative, and probably the victory, to his adversary.

Keith B wrote:
Purplehood wrote:
Based purely on supposition and the popular media, I always thought that LEO's were required to carry off-duty. That is not always the case?
Nope. My BIL was Chief and there were many times he didn't even carry on duty. Some of his officers did not carry depending on where/what they were doing. Others carried 24/7.

Keith B is right on. Although most agencies allow off duty carry, many officers, just like many CHL's, consider the inconvenience not worth the effort and elect to leave the gun at home - with pretty much the same results as civilians who do the same.

An officer in my agency who almost never carried off duty found himself in a bank during an armed holdup. While the bandit was inside, an officer responding to the bank alarm approached the front door. Our officer later said he was in a perfect position to take out the bad guy who he saw was preparing to attack the arriving officer. However, since he was unarmed, this was not an option. Upon opening the door, the responding officer was immediately shot in the leg by the bad guy, who proceeded to make his escape. Our officer went to the fallen officers side, identified himself, and asked for the officer's gun to give chase. The wounded officer told him in no uncertain terms to get away from him because if he was a real cop he would've had his own gun. He made the right call, and I couldn't agree more.

Our chagrined officer went to religiously carrying a .44 magnum revolver at all times off duty - for about 2 weeks, at which point he went back to never carrying off duty at all.

In life there are fast learners, slow learners, and no learners. There's not much you can do for the latter.

C-dub wrote:Well, they probably won't go looking through the wallets right then. However, when they eventually do, now they have your address and know there are weapons to be had there.

The other potential issue is that some of these highly unstable individuals take it as a personal affront when they find an armed compliant victim. When I started police work, I lived in the Bronx. It was well known that if an LEO was caught in a robbery where the bandits searched patrons, he'd be executed when they found his badge and gun. A member of my agency found himself in this situation and wasn't carrying a gun, but did have his badge. When they found it he was marched into a bathroom stall, told he was going to be killed, and the gun was pressed to his head. Only a well timed shout of "time to go" from one of his compatriots saved the officer's life. He wasn't quite the same after that.

Preemptive action was considered to be the only viable option, even if it was ugly.

I don't know if the same mindset applies down here, but I also don't plan to find out the hard way.

03Lightningrocks wrote:
Excaliber wrote:
Purplehood wrote:I will probably die with a pork-chop in my mouth.
If you stick to restaurants that sell pork chops, the pork chops are much more likely to get you than armed bandits.

On the other hand, if you go to places that sell Big Macs or fried chicken to go, it could go either way....
Waffle house has the best Pork Chop and Eggs plate I have ever eaten.

Hmmmm - how about shrimp scampi? Well, you get the idea......

Dragonfighter wrote:
Shorts wrote:Well yes, "you never know" until it happens. But the simple discussion opens up a thought process many might have never considered. Its probably much more pleasant a surprise on an internet forum than in real life

I don't think that the value of running through "what if" scenarios can be over estimated. In fact I would posit that regularly running through these scenarios is a form of "training" and I believe, that if actually faced with the unthinkable, you would revert to your "training" including range work and tactical "imaginings".

This is true for hard wired biological reasons. When your heart rate escalates sharply under life threatening stress, your ability to think creatively goes sharply downhill and your brain searches for "preprogrammed" responses. If it finds some, it executes them. If it doesn't, your heart rate skyrockets further and you become even less capable of getting yourself out of whatever you've gotten into.

Thinking about things beforehand is planning, not training. Tactics have to be physically exercised and repeated to bring them to the point of reliable usability when you need them most.

Dragonfighter wrote:
Shorts wrote:Well yes, "you never know" until it happens. But the simple discussion opens up a thought process many might have never considered. Its probably much more pleasant a surprise on an internet forum than in real life

I don't think that the value of running through "what if" scenarios can be over estimated. In fact I would posit that regularly running through these scenarios is a form of "training" and I believe, that if actually faced with the unthinkable, you would revert to your "training" including range work and tactical "imaginings".

This is true for hard wired biological reasons. When your heart rate escalates sharply under life threatening stress, your ability to think creatively goes sharply downhill and your brain searches for "preprogrammed" responses. If it finds some, it executes them. If it doesn't, your heart rate skyrockets further and you become even less capable of getting yourself out of whatever you've gotten into.

Thinking about things beforehand is planning, not training. Tactics have to be physically exercised and repeated to bring them to the point of reliable usability when you need them most.

Purplehood wrote:I will probably die with a pork-chop in my mouth.

If you stick to restaurants that sell pork chops, the pork chops are much more likely to get you than armed bandits.

On the other hand, if you go to places that sell Big Macs or fried chicken to go, it could go either way....

Dragonfighter wrote:
mgood wrote:Sounds good. And it may work out like that. But I wouldn't count on it.
Gang members shoot at members of rival gangs frequently.
One issue police have now is that it is the "homies" who have more experience under fire than the cops.
Also, most gang members know a fellow gang member who's been shot. Most of the don't die. And many are not afraid of being shot.
I would argue to the contrary. I can't tell you how many big bad, gang bangers I've seen cry like babies with as little as a .25 in the thigh.

To the fellow whose wife thinks he's crazy, I feel for you brother. Mine will pick out a good (relative to the environment) table and save me the best FOF position at the table. We never discussed it, she just does it. I am blessed, and married way out of my league.

Added in Edit: As I thought about this, another factor occurred to me. As others have pointed out good SA is critical. But in the Waffle House scenario in particular, good SA would place you in a situation that as they came in (remember guns are already out) cause a traffic jam at the door. Nail the first one through and keep stacking 'em up until you run out of bad guys or bullets. When ever I am out somewhere, no one comes in without the once over.

If an engagement is necessary, the "fatal funnel" of the entry door is probably the most advantageous location for it if you can position yourself to act before they enter the main area and you can do so without endangering innocent patrons.

If my table is close enough to the door that I could be immediately seen by a bandit upon entering, particularly in fast food or breakfast house environments. I also give the once-over to everyone who comes in. It doesn't take a lot of effort or time once it becomes a habit, so it doesn't interfere with my meal.

If I'm in a more remote section, I rely on being able to sense a sudden change in the level of conversation and mood among the other patrons to let me know something I may need to know about is going on.

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