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Keith B wrote:

Excaliber wrote:

Keith B wrote:
The ideal is to have a family plan where the spouse manages the phone and you manage the 1911.

That is the way it is, 911 & 1911 are simultaneous from the wife & I.

Sounds like you're "good to go".

Keith B wrote:There are noises I will investigate, and those that I won't. Raccoons and skunks usually don't make the sound of breaking glass in a car window or of busting through a locked gate. If is sounds unlike an animal rooting around in the yard, I am gonna light it up with a flashlight from the house, or outside lights are going to go on. My main intent is to drive away whatever is out there without endangering myself or my family, with the hope of getting it gone before it does any damage. Then, if warranted, I can be on the phone with the police and advise them of the incident. If it is trying to come through the door or window of the house, then 911 and 1911.

Keith,

Thanks for grasping and restating what I've been trying to get across. People are more important than property, and there's no upside to giving up your strong home court advantage by going outside to confront a real bad guy out there when you have good reason to think that's the case.

You are tactically, legally, and morally far better off by letting him come to you if that is his intent and dealing with him decisively as he makes entry.

I have just one suggested change for your tactics: Reverse the order of 911 and 1911 to put the 1911 first. If things go downhill quickly, it's better to have the 1911 already in hand than to try to manage the situation with a phone.

The ideal is to have a family plan where the spouse manages the phone and you manage the 1911.

Liberty wrote:

Excaliber wrote: I confess I kinda wonder about folks who feel a need to run outside and chase every raccoon, skunk and armadillo out of their yards with gun in hand, or blast 'em to protect their turf. I enjoy watching the little critters myself.

The trick here is in being right every time about the source of the noise. The time you think it's a raccoon and go out to do the night ninja thing on your own and run into an armed burglar, you could try saying "oops!" and ask for a do-over, but I wouldn't put any money on a positive outcome.

If one has a garden or chickens you won't have them long if you don't protect it. I agree that shooting the critters is not a prime choice. Loud noises rocks or even an air gun can be pretty effective.

If One were afraid to go out into their own back yard after dark, because of a noise, I would assume its even more dangerous to venture away from our own property at night. I just think it is a sad condition if one becomes this afraid of the dark. I don't believe stepping into ones yard are going out into the evening is being a night ninja, I call it living a normal healthy life. I heard noises in back yard all the time, and I never felt like I was in danger, and just as important, I never put anyone else in danger that didn't need to be.

Maybe There are boggymen out in my back yard, but If they keep me so afraid that I can't even v enture out into own backyard, thaenb they have already killed a little piece of me.

If you've got chickens or a garden that the critters are raiding, nothing I've said was intended to keep you from dealing with the varmints as needed to protect your food sources. Nor did I suggest that one should be afraid of the dark, or be afraid to go outside on his property when there's no indication that hostile humans may be there too.

When you do see movement or hear things that indicate something or someone is walking around on your property, it's a really good idea to know what you're dealing with before you step outside. Well placed automatic lights triggered by movement give you a real advantage by letting you get a good assessment of what's out there simply by looking out a window.

If you see or hear circumstances that indicate a human prowler may be on the property, IMHO the course of action that is most likely to give you an outcome you'll be happy with is to call the police to handle the outside while you take up a suitable position and posture to protect people on the inside.

That's just my opinion from having dealt with the folks who skulk around others' property for many years and spending a lot of time learning how they think and what they're capable of. Clearly there are other options available, and which one you select is up to you.

Doug.38PR wrote:If the police were "better prepared to deal with the many things" then they would be on the scene as the crime was taking place...but they aren't. You are. The only thing they will have time to prepare is the camera to take a picture of your dead body at worst and at best take a verbal report from you that gets filed away and nothing ever happens.

The logic appears a bit fuzzy here. Being well prepared to manage a situation and being clairvoyant enough to know when and where a situation will occur before it starts are two very different things.

Police manage situations they know about pretty well after they arrive on scene, and they can apply equipment and resources many folks don't keep on hand. If someone ever figures out the prediction in advance piece, he'll be one wealthy dude in no time.

Doug.38PR wrote: There may be more than one, you've got to prepare for that. They may or may not be armed. They may or may not be ready for you.

In response to being ready to encounter more than one intruder, who may be armed and ready for you, it should be added that if there really are 1 or more bad guys out there, you may not survive the encounter you've elected to engage in from a tactically disadvantaged position. While you're making lists of things to prepare for, you might give that not unlikely outcome some attention as well.

Liberty wrote:

Doug.38PR wrote: Whether I call the police before or after I assess the situation depends on 100 different things. Whether I go outside or stay inside because I percieve it to be the best tactic also depends on 100 different things. Man has been protecting his hearth, home and land for 4000 years. Policemen are an invention of the mid 19th century. We have to take chances in life every day. Sometimes it means going outside to investigate an unusual bump in the night. There may be more than one, you've got to prepare for that. They may or may not be armed. They may or may not be ready for you.

I guess I was born in a different time , but I was raised to take care of myself and whats mine. Some might call the cops every time a Racoon gets into their garden because they are just to frightened to take care of things themselves. I really cant understand how folks can be so afraid to check out their own back yards. Maybe its a different neigborhoods. These are interesting times. I do believe I do have a bigger understanding why our taxes are so high and our police are so busy. If we are to call the cops every time we here a noise or hear a dog bark we sure do need a lot of cops.

Now if i actually see someone, Its probably a good idea to call for re-enforcements.

I confess I kinda wonder about folks who feel a need to run outside and chase every raccoon, skunk and armadillo out of their yards with gun in hand, or blast 'em to protect their turf. I enjoy watching the little critters myself.

The trick here is in being right every time about the source of the noise. The time you think it's a raccoon and go out to do the night ninja thing on your own and run into an armed burglar, you could try saying "oops!" and ask for a do-over, but I wouldn't put any money on a positive outcome.

srothstein wrote:Well, I have to second all of Excaliber's excellent post about calling the police. It is our job and what we are trained to do. He really hit the nail on the head with people who heard something and did not call and then it turns out to be something major. I cannot count the times I was told by someone that they heard the incident (sometimes a murder) and did not call because they thought it was nothing.

And, while I want you to call the police, I also want to warn you about one type of officer that is getting more common. This is the guy who thinks you should have known what it was and not called him. You can tell his kind by their arrival. As soon as you tell him what you heard, he will say it was probably a raccoon or a cat or a transformer popping. Then you will have to ask him to check anyway. This differs from the officer who tells you that in an effort to calm your nerves but then says that he will go check to make sure. He is just used to people who are nervous and need to be calmed down while he knows it might still be something real.

Make the lazy or rude officer do his job. Don't get put off by his attitude that you are bothering him or interrupting other work. Just be polite and firm as you tell him you want him to check it out anyway. If he refuses, then you need to call the department later (not argue with him). As much as I hate this, a lot of the younger cops are not being taught the old customer service rules in the academy. They think they will really catch felons all the time and get upset at lesser calls.

What I always recommend for home defense is take a good defensive position and wait for the bad guys to come to you. Especially if you have one hallway leading to the bedroom area, you can cover the threat to the family without further endangering anyone. And if someone does come towards you, you can then rest assured that their intentions are not nice.

Doug.38PR wrote:When all is said and done. In reality we are all our own policemen. "To protect and serve" is a lie. At least the "protect part is." The police cannot protect you or your property. That is YOUR job. They might be able to catch the criminal who got away. Their pay is to help them solve crimes (investigate and gather evidence that leads to catching and arresting the criminal). BUT we are responsible for policing our own property and our neighbors property (if they desire) regardless of what liberals and "let the police handle it" types think.
Where I come from, if you hear a suspicious noise outside, YOU go to investigate. Shooting at a prowler in the nightime (criminal misschief in the nighttime) is you not taking any chances that this unknown person who obviously doesn't belong there afterdark isn't going to harm you under the concealment of darkness.
Having said all that, this guy should not have shot first and ask questions later. Or in this case, answered questions later (to a grand jury). Look before you leap seems to apply here.

KD5NRH wrote:That's why I taught my wife to shoot; she stays inside the door with the .243 and watches for anything moving that isn't me or the cats. Out to 100 yards, she can outshoot me with a rifle, and at least match me to 15 yards with a pistol.

About 15 minutes ago something started a ruckus outside. That skunk is now dead, bagged and downwind.

If we'd called 911, a deputy might be calling for directions by now, since we're 8 minutes minimum from the quick stop they're all at. Any threat that isn't in the house by the time they respond isn't much of a threat.

Thanks to the motion sensors not tripping, I could tell that it either wasn't over three feet tall or wasn't approaching the porch, so I went with a .22 rifle in hand and .357 in my pocket. Without that bit of advance notice, I would probably be explaining to the neighbors why I woke them up with the +3 Shotgun of Loudness over a skunk. (Mossberg 835 with overbored/ported barrel: it makes field loads sound like magnums, and magnums sound like cannon fire, and it's first shot is a #4 buck magnum. With the full choke, it also tends to make a squishy mess of small critters, which isn't something I want to do with a skunk close to the house.)

There's a qualification that should be made here. If a violent incident is already in progress, it is you, your resources, and your immediate actions that will determine the outcome. Even if someone does manage to call 911, the damage would be done long before officers arrive if no one on the scene already takes effective action.

The prowler response outlined by KD5NRH works great on skunks, possums, armadillos, etc. However, going outside to hunt prowlers who might pose a threat to you actually increases their opportunity to do so because they can see where you are at least as easily as you can see them, you have to move away from cover from time to time, and the basic assumption should be where there's one, there's at least 2.

The police are far better prepared to deal with the many things that can go wrong than you or your wife would be. For example, if the bad guy manages to fire first and seriously wound you, what's the plan? The police don't yet know they're needed at your property. Does your wife stay inside, lock the door, call 911 and wait? Does she call 911 and go outside to try to help and expose herself to attack as well? Does she just skip the 911 part and instinctively run to your side, dropping all pretense of sound tactics? What do the two of you do when she is shot too?

I see very little upside to going outside, and lots of ugly possibilities when unwise tactics take the incident into the toilet. That's why I keep nothing worth dying for in the backyard, call the police if I think a prowler is outside, and set up a well thought out welcome party inside in case he's inclined to come after people before they can deal with him or them.

bryang wrote:I want to add my, THANK YOU, Excaliber, for all of your post.

They have helped me to understand more than I could ever get out of books, and I have read a lot of them. You can learn so much from someone that has been through it already. And to see these situations from his perspective has been an eye opener.

I think everyone that gets a CHL should be required to take part in this forum.

Thanks,
-geo

You are more than welcome as well.

[quote=:03Lightningrocks"]All I can think to say is WOW! I know you directed this to Dave, but I have to tell you how much I appreciate the level headed advise. Many of us here can relate in different ways to many of these situations. You give us much to consider in being prepared and making sound decisions.

Thank you. [/quote]

You're more than welcome!

It's always rewarding to hear that some of my contributions are considered to be of value by folks who are truly looking for answers to some very difficult and complex questions.

SlowDave wrote:

Excaliber wrote:

SlowDave wrote: Well, I'll throw out a possible, rational (in my mind) scenario. My dog (who never barks unless someone is in his yard or within vision) started barking like crazy one night around 1 a.m. Now, do I call the police? Seems a little over the top. So, I grab the pistol and go out to investigate. Turned out it was a coon hanging on the side of our house (in the suburbs!) scared to death. But I could have walked out to find The Bad Guy(s). I wouldn't ever go outside to confront bad guys, but I will go outside to investigate strange noises and stuff. I guess someday, I could find that the noise was one that I should have called the police for. Any recommendations of some alternative action plan to take in situations like this?

You did lock the door behind you when you went outside to make sure an intruder couldn't slip in behind you, didn't you? I thought so. Good thing it was a raccoon.

Here are a couple of thoughts on the alternative action plan request:

If the noise is outside and can't be positively identified as a threat, your best course of action is to stay inside and monitor the situation. It will either develop into an identifiable threat with a clear set of options and you in a solid tactical position in a building interior you can effectively control, or it will fade away. There's seldom much of an immediate threat to your safety when a potential threat is still outside and you're inside. If a threat can be identified while it is still outside (either by sound or by going the low tech route of looking out your windows), it's time to call for the cavalry and take up an armed defensive position with preparations to safely stop an intrusion if it occurs.

If you go outside, you put yourself at high risk, severely complicate the situation for responding officers, and leave the rest of the family undefended inside. The recent tragic shooting of the newlywed who did this in Anaheim, CA serves as an excellent reminder of just how badly this can go. I don't see an upside to this tactic in a suburban environment, with the exception of a situation where a deadly attack on an innocent party is actually in progress outside and immediate intervention will make the difference between survival and severe injury or death for the victim.

Excaliber,
Thanks for your post. I did not lock the door, although I only got a few feet from it. I was pretty sure it was something unimportant, like an animal, since the situation had not escalated, but "pretty sure's" not gonna do it if/when I'm wrong.

I like your idea, but applying to this situation as an example, I don't see a clear way out. If I had stayed inside, looking from the windows only, I could not see the coon, since he was actually on the corner of the house, not visible from the window unless I opened it, removed the screen and stuck my head out. And if I had waited, I think that coon would've stayed on the side of the house for hours (he'd already been there ~30 min and was still very difficult to knock off) while my dog barked once every 15 seconds until dawn, or something. Point is, I don't think it would have either developed into something identifiable nor faded away (per your post above). I guess that would leave me calling the police to come out and find a raccoon on the side of my house, at which point I'd feel pretty stupid. I guess I'd still rather feel stupid than feel dead.

Good discussion in any case. I will think more seriously the next time before going out to investigate these trivial little things like what's my dog barking at or what's that sound in the back yard. It would be very tragic to open the door and walk into an ambush.

Dave:

Here are a couple more thoughts to address your latest post. Would be night time intruders don't like light. High intensity (300 watt) floodlights that come on automatically when they detect movement (available at Home Depot or Lowe's) are a great help. When anything passes my fence line, my two units light up the entire backyard and side yard to the point that I worry some of the airliners on the way to DFW may think my yard is the runway.

Someone who's skulking around thinking he's pretty covert gets his own adrenaline dump when he's lit up by 300 watts of painfully white halogen illumination. Animals will trip the lights too (I set mine to stay on for just a couple of minutes). After a couple of weeks with the lights in place (and looking outside when they come on) you'll know exactly what animals visit and when they tend to do so (possum at about 12:30, armadillo at 3:00, etc.). You'll also see them before they get to the house, so you can make reasonable judgments on any sounds that may follow.

The other thing to remember is that the police are well aware that suspicious noises won't always turn out to be an intruder, and an animal is a real good possibility, but if you're alarmed by the sound and consider it worth investigating, it's worth calling the police for. It's a whole lot safer for you to stay inside, and to let them do the search because they're highly trained to do it with minimal risk to themselves (and none to you), wear easily identifiable uniforms, have great equipment including high intensity lighting, long guns, and two way communications that will quickly bring the whole cavalry if they ask for it, and they usually work in at least pairs. ( In a 360 degree low light threat environment, a tailgunner is an invaluable asset. ) And after they leave, you, your wife, and your dog can get some peaceful sleep.

After incident investigations often find that people heard or saw something that, had it been reported immediately, would have changed the outcome much for the better, but didn't call because they didn't want to bother the police, didn't want to be thought stupid if it turned out to be nothing, or they convinced themselves that it couldn't really be what it looked like. In my contacts with citizens and in public presentations, I advocated a very simple rule of thumb: Better ten calls too many than one call too few.

bryang wrote:

pedalman wrote:Excalibur, I am glad that you and Steve Rothstein frequent this forum. I really learn a lot from you guys. You also help me with lots of reality checks for these scenarios.

I definitely agree and add my "thank you" for sharing you wisdom and experiences with us. I for one, appreciate all of ya'll on this forum... very much!

-geo

Bryang and Pedalman, I'm very happy that you've found some useful tidbits in my posts. Knowing that this happens from time to time is rewarding to me and makes the effort involved worthwhile.

Liberty wrote:

Excaliber wrote:

Liberty wrote:Or they can rob you blind of anything you have in your back yard! I will not let badguys have free run of my property just because it is dark.

I solve that problem by not keeping anything worth dying for in my backyard.

I have very little worth dying for, but I'm not willing to let just anyone take anything away from me without a fight. At certain times in my life I have put myself at risk for other peoples stuff. I don't mind doing it for my own stuff. Although I believe in taking steps to minimize the risk. If I ever get to afraid to check out my own property, I should probably give up that property and move someplace safer. I understand that some might feel different. But I believe if I'm willing to let folks steal my stuff sure as Hades someone will take my stuff.

So far one has killed me yet.

I'm glad to hear that no one has killed you yet, because that first time is such a bummer.

There's a difference between not doing something out of fear or cowardice, and not doing something because it places one in unnecessary danger because it's tactically unsound. I searched for, fought with, and dragged bad guys out of really nasty places for over 20 years, and I have a pretty well developed concept of what risks are worth taking and which aren't. Not everything I did was really smart, and I have the emergency room visits to prove it. However, at this point in my life, I have no need to prove to myself, my wife, my kids, or my neighbors that I'm brave, smart, sexy, or anything else. When I'm confronted with a dangerous situation, I look to manage it so I survive physically, legally, and financially first. Anything after that is a nice to have.

I am well aware that some folks live a rich fantasy life and relish the opportunity to play night ninja because they think that with their trusty pistol in hand,they will dominate the bad guys and be seen as a hero at the conclusion of the incident. (I'm not attaching this observation to anyone here on the forum, so hold the flames please.) Folks who have been through a whole lot of these incidents over time have a healthy respect for just how cunning, violent, and ruthless the bad guys can be, and how difficult it is to maneuver safely in a 360 degree low light threat environment.

If a night ninja confronts the 13 year old from down the street who's trying to make off with his hubcaps, he'll probably come through it OK as long as he doesn't use excessive force. If he tries to take on bad guys who've been at their game for several years, he'll be totally outclassed regardless of how expensive his carry piece is. The bad guys will use distraction, apparent submission, sleight of hand, concealment, and other maneuvers to draw the ninja into a tactical position where he can be successfully attacked and overwhelmed. It's a whole lot different from launching rounds at a static paper target that is always straight ahead and doesn't move or shoot back in a well lighted indoor range. Unless he's really lucky, the ninja will not only lose, he'll be lucky if he isn't seriously injured or killed. If his neighbor is a night ninja too, his chances of doing well are significantly reduced because when they both get excited and see silhouettes with weapons in their hands, they both will have an excellent chance of finding out why friendly fire isn't friendly.

If you only do something once or twice in your life, even if you don't follow the wisest course, it's possible that you may luck out and get away with it. If you use unsound tactics several times a day in what you do for a living, you create a serious risk that you won't get to collect a pension. That's why some of us have put so much effort into learning from past incidents and applying the lessons for the future.

The views I share have been developed from after action reviews of a very large number of incidents from my own experience and that of many others, and from a great deal of research. My hope is that those who have an interest in learning will benefit from what I have to say and will use it to manage their own critical incidents in a way that favors their success. I also look forward to critiques of my views because the more I learn, the less I know.

For the folks who think I'm all wet and they have much better ways of doing things, I wish them the best of luck and only ask that they share their after action reports on the forum so others can learn from their experiences as well.

Liberty wrote:Or they can rob you blind of anything you have in your back yard! I will not let badguys have free run of my property just because it is dark.

I solve that problem by not keeping anything worth dying for in my backyard.

SlowDave wrote:

03Lightningrocks wrote:I will never understand the thinking that makes a person in a suburban environment want to run around outside their house as if they are chuck norris chasing down a criminal. A thought that never seems to occur to these heroes is that the hero next door, not realizing he is shooting a fellow hero, may decide to open fire on you. It is a pretty big step for an average citizen to take it upon themselves to become caped crusaders, utilizing all the skills they learned from reading really cool how-to books.

I could understand getting involved if you saw a person being raped or bludgeoned, but that typically isn't the case in these wild west vigilante style shootings. Most of the time it is just property issues.

Well, I'll throw out a possible, rational (in my mind) scenario. My dog (who never barks unless someone is in his yard or within vision) started barking like crazy one night around 1 a.m. Now, do I call the police? Seems a little over the top. So, I grab the pistol and go out to investigate. Turned out it was a coon hanging on the side of our house (in the suburbs!) scared to death. But I could have walked out to find The Bad Guy(s). I wouldn't ever go outside to confront bad guys, but I will go outside to investigate strange noises and stuff. I guess someday, I could find that the noise was one that I should have called the police for. Any recommendations of some alternative action plan to take in situations like this?

You did lock the door behind you when you went outside to make sure an intruder couldn't slip in behind you, didn't you? I thought so. Good thing it was a raccoon.

Here are a couple of thoughts on the alternative action plan request:

If the noise is outside and can't be positively identified as a threat, your best course of action is to stay inside and monitor the situation. It will either develop into an identifiable threat with a clear set of options and you in a solid tactical position in a building interior you can effectively control, or it will fade away. There's seldom much of an immediate threat to your safety when a potential threat is still outside and you're inside. If a threat can be identified while it is still outside (either by sound or by going the low tech route of looking out your windows), it's time to call for the cavalry and take up an armed defensive position with preparations to safely stop an intrusion if it occurs.

If you go outside, you put yourself at high risk, severely complicate the situation for responding officers, and leave the rest of the family undefended inside. The recent tragic shooting of the newlywed who did this in Anaheim, CA serves as an excellent reminder of just how badly this can go. I don't see an upside to this tactic in a suburban environment, with the exception of a situation where a deadly attack on an innocent party is actually in progress outside and immediate intervention will make the difference between survival and severe injury or death for the victim.

LCP_Dogg wrote:Any LEOs want to share some advice (OTHER than "don't") for us Night Ninja types (I know I fall into this category at times)... Something we could wear or do maybe that won't get us shot (but might get us approached/questioned still).

I don't have any good answers for that one. That's one reason why I'm not a fan of the night ninja approach. I did enough of that stuff when it was my job, and it isn't any more. My personal policy is to stay inside where the tactical advantage is mine and let the LEO's manage the outside stuff. There's nothing outside my house worth dying for.

I recognize that this doesn't answer all needs. I live in a small town with a very responsive PD backed up by the sheriff's office. If you live on a ranch, LEO response is 45 minutes away, and someone is attempting to steal your vehicle or farm equipment, you might reasonably decide to intervene and have little likelihood that you'll be mistaken for a bad guy by the police who won't get there for quite a while. You'd still need to deal with the 360 degree threat environment, the bad guys' tactics, and the fact that if you get into trouble out there, it'll be quite some time before anyone arrives to give you a hand. So if you do decide to go outside - be awfully careful out there!