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mr.72 wrote:

agbullet2k1 wrote: Applying your earlier logic (trail riders vs. walkers), legal != prudent.

Yes, you are absolutely right. When I am riding at night, I have a blinking red rear light (which, by the way, is not really legal in the state of Texas, but is extremely prudent) and at least a solid front light, maybe a blinking front light (definitely illegal in the state of Texas). I also never ever get on a bicycle without a helmet. I cleaned out my storage room last weekend and tossed two cracked bicycle helmets that serve as reminders of what might happen do my skull if I fail to wear a helmet.

However, just like bicycles and hikers understanding what is likely, prudent, or expected on the trail, drivers can benefit greatly from trying to understand why bicycles do what they do on the road so when they do something it is not so unexpected. I run red lights all the time on my bike. Mostly I do it in order to avoid interacting with cars. Dogmatic insistence that the "rules of the road" or the traffic laws should apply identically to all vehicles from bicycles to semi trucks doesn't make any sense. There is no way that an exposed rider on a 25 lb vehicle with less than 1 hp and a top non-coasting speed of 25 mph should be expected to adhere to the same rules as a multi-ton truck. That's irrational and illogical. Legal != prudent in all cases.

Point taken. I believe there are instances where minor traffic violations are excusable, as long as they are done to maximize the safety of all involved. If I'm on my bike and riding through a semi-busy street, I'll run a stop sign assuming that there are no cars in the immediate vicinity just because I believe it is safer for all involved if I just get my butt out of the way. However, if I come to a 4-way stop that has cars waiting to go in all directions, I'll stop with the rest of the cars, and definitely wait my turn, if not more, to ensure that I don't endanger myself or others by doing something that is not expected. I also never leave without my helmet, just because I was brought up that way, and I've had way too many close calls with kids running out in front of me or low hanging branches coming out of nowhere. I can't think of any experienced rider that thinks riding on a busy road without a helmet is a good idea. Just even the sight of a helmet on a biker gives a driver the notion that the biker has some sense of safety. No helmet gives the impression of recklessness.

I believe that an experienced rider can make a good judgement call that will minimize the risk to himself and others as it relates to the following/breaking of traffic laws. Now, as for my experience the other night, the fact that a majority of them put themselves and others at risk leads me to believe that they were not experienced and therefore probably had no business riding like that at night.

Again, not all rides are like the one I witnessed. I pass one all the time (about 30-40 riders) driving to my in-laws that is very organized and blends with the road traffic very well.

quidni wrote:Here's one of my peeves that I haven't seen mentioned yet - loads that are not properly secured. Whether it's cargo in the back of a pickup or on a trailer, or just loose "stuff" blowing around (and out) of a pickup bed, an unsecured load is an accident waiting to happen. And unfortunately, it usually happens to whomever is driving behind, not to the one hauling the load. My husband once saw the remains of a piano that had come out of a tail-gate-less pickup on I-10....

Also - folks who let kids ride unsecured in the back of a pickup, especially on the highway.

Compost is the worst.

I thought kids in the back of a truck was illegal? Do you call them in?

mr.72 wrote:

agbullet2k1 wrote:While we're on the topic of bikes, I have a problem with group rides that aren't "organized" except on paper.

How else are they supposed to be organized? Can private citizens not organize their own ride? "Hey, why don't you guys meet me at 7:00am and we'll ride out to Andice from Cedar Park...". However it would be highly unusual for a ride to include 300-400 riders. I suspect you are exaggerating this number a little bit? That's over twice as many as are in the Tour de France. Anyway, closing roads for many rides is not common, and police escorts are almost unheard of for anything that is not organized by the city. Many, even most, races are held on open public roads. I suspect you would find it far less convenient for bicycle races to routinely involve closing public roads.

Now about the specifics of your story:

1. no lighting is required for bicycles by law
2. Normally a group ride tries to keep the group together through traffic lights, which is obviously what they were doing, even if the light turns red. The group is sort of treated like one large vehicle in this instance.
3. You cannot stop a bicycle very fast, and trying to do so while in a large group like this can be very dangerous. So if they were approaching the light while it was green, and then it turned yellow or red right as they got there, then it would have resulted in a giant pile up if they'd tried to stop. The safest thing to do is ride on through.

Now I know I am not going to convince you that these cyclists didn't just run the light after it was red for a very long time, and I also will not plan to convince you that it is foolish to pull up onto the railroad track until you know full well you can proceed through. But it may help to just learn how to expect cyclists to behave while they are on the road. They do what they do mostly for their own safety. Cyclists in a group of dozens or more are much safer in terms of traffic interaction than isolated cyclists or groups of just a few, so they ride in this kind of group on purpose to protect themselves.

Applying your earlier logic (trail riders vs. walkers), legal != prudent. Just because they aren't required to have lights doesn't mean that they shouldn't have them. The red light had been red ever since the previous light cycle, so probably 2 minutes or more (our direction got the green light/arrow before they're side, if that makes sense). We started filing forward, because at the time it turned green, the intersection was clear. It was also a fairly long distance to make it over the track, because it ran diagonal to the road.

I ride bikes enough myself to know that there was plenty of time to stop from whatever speed, assuming they had brakes. I also ride bikes enough to know that no matter what the law might say, my own sense of survival tells me the bigger vehicle has the right of way if they want it. If bikes want to be treated like road vehicles, then the same rules need to apply. Red means stop to all road vehicles, and green means go. You want to get passed that rule? Hire a police escort.

Also, most organized rides I know of down here require minimum safety equipment such as helmets and at least flashers/refective clothing at night. This is why I suspent this ride wasn't very organized/experienced. The several hundred number isn't an exageration. It was definitely more than just a few dozen friends getting together. All of the organized rides here (that I know of at least) also stop for red lights, even if it splits them up. There was a steady flow through the intersection for at least a minute (referenced by the light changing from green to red again).

I know bikers are sensitive about criticism on the road because they feel like they're always picked on by car folks. I'm a biker, too, and I've had my share of arguments about whether bikes should be on a major road during rush hour (they should, provided safe riding is observed). There is a difference between sharing the road and flat out disregard for traffic laws and other vehicles.

While we're on the topic of bikes, I have a problem with group rides that aren't "organized" except on paper.

True story from Thanksgiving weekend:
The wife and I are heading to downtown Houston to see some 80's cover band that my brother-in-law and his wife insisted we had to check out. While driving (my wife was behind the wheel), we have to stop at a redlight which is situated right after the tracks for the downtown Houston Kill-a-mo-Train (METRO). Keep in mind it was about 8:00 at night and dark.

We stop short of the tracks while one car stops at the light forward of the tracks. When the light turns green, we look left and right, and upon seeing no train, fill in the gap from the front car. We were anticipating, well you know, the light being green and all. that we should be moving through the intersection. About that time, a group of bike riders coming the opposite direction turn left across the intersection (They're left turn light was RED). When I say group, I'm not talking 3 or 4, I'm talking about 300 to 400. Only about 10% had any sort of headlight, and they continued to file through the intersection for at least a minute. The front car slammed on his brakes, and so did we, right on top of the tracks.

Well, as Murphy had predicted, we hear the ever terrifying *ding ding ding* of the "Kill-a-mo-Train coming" signal, and look up through the sun roof to see the bars coming down on us. I look out my window, and sure enough, about 200 yards away was the headlight of doom coming straight at my door. The car in front of us was blocked by the group of bikers, and there were by that point 7 or 8 cars behind us that couldn't back up in time. So as we were both unbuckling and preparing to bail, the front car notices our dillema and just plows through the bikes, horn blaring. Luckily (and most anti-karmatically, in my opinion) no bikers were hit, but a few did have to veer out of the way and ended up end-oing on the curb. We managed to fly off the tracks with about 3 seconds to spare.

The bikers had no police escort, mostly no headlights, about half had no safety equipment, and they ALL ran a very RED left turn light, almost causing us to lose our car, and quite possibly, our lives. To add to our severe anger, we got quite a few NSF 10YO rule gestures and words thrown at us. We called the police, but couldn't give them any other description than group of bikers. They said it happens sometimes, but that they knew of no organized rides that requested escorts for that night in that area. Never got a call back from them.

At the beach, people leaving the engine running on their bond-o speckled, whale-finned rice burner so that their radio doesn't drain the battery while blasting whatever atrocious music they found in the dollar bin at walmart. The exhaust smells, the music sucks, and the sight of the poor creature that used to be a Civic make it offensive to almost all senses.

(Although using the truck to tow them out when they get stuck in the sand does earn enough good samaritan money to finance the gas and beer for the day)

Other than that, almost all my pet peeves are the indoor variety.