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wgoforth wrote:

03Lightningrocks wrote:

wgoforth wrote:I will TRY to clear this once again. YES, I know the law on this...this isn't a typical case of a store improperly posting. I have snickered at many improper postings as I kept walking...This is a case where the store AND the LEO's who provide the security were claiming it to be a "no gun zone." With that in mind, I did not wish to risk an LEO asking "can I see in your pouch" (pocket, fanny pack, etc). YES, I could get off...but not until I have taken a ride and hired a lawyer since even the LEO's were misinformed. Had a 30.06 gone up instead, I am convinced that in this small town there would have been such an outcry they would have been forced to remove it. As I have said before, if I had the attitude of letting people get away with wrong thoughts and actions, I should never have become a gospel preacher. I decided to risk that educating them would help them act properly...and it did. I only jumped back in to show the positive outcome educating folks could have and I have caught rain on this.
Peace out everyone, ok??

txbirddog wrote:

wgoforth wrote:Just recently moved to Brownwood, TX. Waaaaaaaay into the mall is a "Mall Etiquette" sign, that way down the list states "no weapons, legal or illegal." I realize that it is not the proper sign nor properly displayed, but still doesn't mean one could not get hassled about it, be asked to leave or even have cops called on them. I called the Property Manager's office of the mall and was informed that it is intended to include CHL holders. I informed her that there must be a properly displayed 30.06 sign. She said that this was to keep store owners and patrons from being nervous if they thought someone might have one. Of course if they thought I did, then it wasn't concealed properly. Of course signs like this ONLY affect the good guys as bad guys could care less about the signs. Now that they have informed me that I cannot carry, do I continue to ignore the sign or vote with my feet? BTW, the mall is having most of their stores to move to the currently closed strip mall anyway soon.
Thanks
Wayne

Wayne,

If you know what the law is, why would you try to put yourself against it? I am just confused here.

I am glad it has turned out the way it has, but it could have as easily gone the other way.

Not for nothing, but you did not educate anyone. The cop that needed educated is still as dumb as a stump and running around risking a HUGE law suite for false arrest. It was one ignorant cop. I truly hope, for the safety of the community you live in, that not all the cops in your town went to the Barney Fife "depaty sherraf" academy.

I am glad you came out lucky on this one but everything you did was completely pointless. Barney would not have arrested anybody for carrying in that mall. He was simply running his large stupid mouth in an effort to impress the citizen who had put him on the Pedestal for a moment or two.

But again...I am glad this one did not back fire on you, Sooner or later everyone will hit the loaded chamber if they play Russian roulette enough times.

I thought God was the only omniscient one able to read men's hearts brother! Are you so SURE that no one got an education?? Your 100% sure that the mall manager and property owner did not know any of the things I pointed out to them concerning chl's, sign postings, etc ?? I believe they did learn some facts concerning chl of which they were not aware. I am of the opinion that when given proper information, many (not all or even most) people will change. Again, if I did not believe so, I would not have been preaching the Word for the past 30 years now would I? BTW, the "dumb cop" is around a 50 year old Texas State Trooper.
I feel I have been very patient in answering the same questions over and over here, and considering how much hammering I have received here for doing what I have felt best. please note I never asked anyone's permission nor for any to agree on my actions. It was my prerogative to do so. Now, this matter, for my part is closed. This has clearly become a case of "no good deed will go unpunished."
I don't mean to be unkind here, but I really don't know how many ways or times to express that this needs to end. Moderators, will you please lock this discussion?

once again, peace out
Wayne

I don't take anything in your post as unkind. I do think you miss the point entirely. God or no god...heart or no heart. I don't have to read anyone's heart to know the law. The law is the law my man. It is no more legal to carry in that mall now than it was before. What was risked is the RKBA in that mall entirely. The risk is not worth the gain...which is nothing in this case. Barney Fife still needs to know the law and from what I read here, he does not.

The example you mention above about a cop asking randomly to see what is in your pouch just about blows me out of the saddle. Short of the local gang banger thugs catching some much deserved grief from Johnny law, I can't in my wildest imagination picture any officer of the law randomly picking a citizen to violate, simply because they are wearing a fanny pack. It is similar to a person not leaving the house because they are worried about being struck by lightning. In my experience, I just don't ever see it happening.

wgoforth wrote:I will TRY to clear this once again. YES, I know the law on this...this isn't a typical case of a store improperly posting. I have snickered at many improper postings as I kept walking...This is a case where the store AND the LEO's who provide the security were claiming it to be a "no gun zone." With that in mind, I did not wish to risk an LEO asking "can I see in your pouch" (pocket, fanny pack, etc). YES, I could get off...but not until I have taken a ride and hired a lawyer since even the LEO's were misinformed. Had a 30.06 gone up instead, I am convinced that in this small town there would have been such an outcry they would have been forced to remove it. As I have said before, if I had the attitude of letting people get away with wrong thoughts and actions, I should never have become a gospel preacher. I decided to risk that educating them would help them act properly...and it did. I only jumped back in to show the positive outcome educating folks could have and I have caught rain on this.
Peace out everyone, ok??

txbirddog wrote:

wgoforth wrote:Just recently moved to Brownwood, TX. Waaaaaaaay into the mall is a "Mall Etiquette" sign, that way down the list states "no weapons, legal or illegal." I realize that it is not the proper sign nor properly displayed, but still doesn't mean one could not get hassled about it, be asked to leave or even have cops called on them. I called the Property Manager's office of the mall and was informed that it is intended to include CHL holders. I informed her that there must be a properly displayed 30.06 sign. She said that this was to keep store owners and patrons from being nervous if they thought someone might have one. Of course if they thought I did, then it wasn't concealed properly. Of course signs like this ONLY affect the good guys as bad guys could care less about the signs. Now that they have informed me that I cannot carry, do I continue to ignore the sign or vote with my feet? BTW, the mall is having most of their stores to move to the currently closed strip mall anyway soon.
Thanks
Wayne

Wayne,

If you know what the law is, why would you try to put yourself against it? I am just confused here.

I am glad it has turned out the way it has, but it could have as easily gone the other way.

Not for nothing, but you did not educate anyone. The cop that needed educated is still as dumb as a stump and running around risking a HUGE law suite for false arrest. It was one ignorant cop. I truly hope, for the safety of the community you live in, that not all the cops in your town went to the Barney Fife "depaty sherraf" academy.

I am glad you came out lucky on this one but everything you did was completely pointless. Barney would not have arrested anybody for carrying in that mall. He was simply running his large stupid mouth in an effort to impress the citizen who had put him on the Pedestal for a moment or two.

But again...I am glad this one did not back fire on you, Sooner or later everyone will hit the loaded chamber if they play Russian roulette enough times.

It is good to hear it worked out in your favor.

LOL....the only one who would take a ride for carrying in that mall with a CHL is you. They have not verbally forbid the rest of us. AGAIN...nobody is going to get arrested for carrying in that mall. It sounds a little bit like the movie Mall Cop...LOL. P.S. I don't carry in a fanny pack. I carry IWB with a shirt left un-tucked hanging over it. I also utilize a super tuck...neither shows any hint of my having a firearm. Everyone around here wears shirts just like I do so there is nothing unusual about my dress style. On the fanny pack issue....LOL....the folks I do know that carry them don't even know how to shoot a gun. I guess I will warn them that there is a single cop out there who rousts everyone wearing fanny packs because he knows that .00001 % of the 2% of the total population that has a CHL...MIGHT be using them to LEGALLY conceal a gun.

Seriously...this is a real far fetched reach to justify making an issue out of something that is NOT affecting the RKBA. It is kind of like making a stink out of having a red light at an intersection that has no red light because a cop said you better stop there anyway.

If there is no violation of the law, no prosecutor can or will file charges...back woods prosecutor or otherwise. The laws of our country won't allow it.

Now on the other hand...the OP has been verbally told not to carry on mall premises. I am not sure, but I believe he may officially be 30:06ed. This alone is enough reason not to run around asking permission to carry a gun at every location we go to. The law is real darned clear on this...other than the usual prohibited locations...any place not post with a 30:06 sign are legal for us to carry. It is a Statewide law and even the dumbest of podunk prosecutors know the basics of the law and no penalty or prosecution will take place. Furthermore, you would NEVER lose your license for carrying ANYWHERE that you are legally allowed to carry. The example spelled out in your post would require a massive violation of your civil rights. Holy cow...I can only pray I get lucky enough to have this happen to me. Talk about hitting the mother load....LOL. I would own that city. It is not ever going to happen.

The fact remains...nothing can be gained by trying to fight a fight that does not need to be fought. As a CHL you can already carry at that location with NO risk of prosecution. On the other hand, making a big deal out of the sign and the fact that it is the wrong one to keep out CHL'ers, can cause them to spend the buck thirty five and buy the appropriate signs.

Oh well...I guess we will just have to agree to disagree in this situation.

KD5NRH wrote:

03Lightningrocks wrote:Wow...with all due respect, I could not possibly disagree more. I am not sure what to say about the comment concerning not getting a CHL. Wow seems appropriate.

Well, you're the one claiming the cops will never know you have it, so what's the risk?

Does not come close to be a valid argument. Like I said...WOW!!! LOL. Your not breaking any law and you will not be arrested for carrying a weapon past the type of sign the OP mentioned as long as you have a CHL. I don't care what some ignorant back woods country fool of a cop thinks about it or how many days this same ignorant backwoods hill billy fool spent as a rent a cop. He flat out can't get away with arresting a person for just anything he decides is wrong. We are a nation of laws my man. Using your argument, I could be arrested for just anything a cop deems appropriate. I guess I should just stay home for fear of some cop deciding I am walking wrong and illegally throwing me in jail.

Again...let me repeat...YOU CAN"T BE LEGALLY ARRESTED FOR CARRYING PAST A GUN BUSTERS SIGN IF YOU HAVE A CHL. THAT WOULD BE ONE OF MY REASONS FOR HAVING A CHL. COPS CANNOT TELL IF YOUR ARMED OR NOT! IF THEY CAN. CHECK YOUR METHOD OF CARRY. IT MEANS YOU HAVE CHOSEN A POOR MEANS OF CARRY. A SECOND AND THE SINGLE BIGGEST REASON FOR HAVING A CHL IS IN THE CASE YOU HAVE TO USE IT TO DEFEND YOURSELF, YOU ARE COVERED LEGALLY FOR CARRYING A FIREARM CONCEALED. NOBODY KNOWS YOUR CARRYING. YOU GUYS THAT THINK THEY DO ARE BEING PARANOID BECAUSE OF SOME INNER FEELINGS OF GUILT ABOUT HAVING A DEADLY WEAPON ON YOU.

PS...LOL...Sorry about the all caps. Cap locks was on and it was easier to change the lower case in this sentences than all the letters.

KD5NRH wrote:

blue wrote:PLEASE FOLKS!!! CONSIDER that Perhaps, just perhaps, the malls and stores really do know the law and are posting noncompliant signs ON PURPOSE to make the Nervous Nellys happy, while knowing we are smart enough to keep our mouths shut and 'Carry On'!

Then it won't hurt a thing to talk to them about it.

CONCEALED MEANS CONCEALED!

Arrested means arrested. Charged means charged. Suspended until dismissal of the charges means suspended until dismissal of the charges.

If your gun is so well concealed that a cop will never spot it, why'd you waste the money on the license, anyway?

Wow...with all due respect, I could not possibly disagree more. I am not sure what to say about the comment concerning not getting a CHL. Wow seems appropriate.

Regardless of whether I agree with your position on this, I truly hope your successful in making them put up the no unlicensed sign in place of the current sign. A sincere good luck to you.

surprise_i'm_armed wrote:wgoforth:

As far as LEO's able to tell who's carrying: keep in mind that when they are
dispatched to a call or come upon some evildoer, they may be able to tell
he's carrying because they expect him to be carrying. Many gangsters do
not have holsters for their weapons, and when you are wearing baggy pants
with no belt that could draw attention. Or even a cowboy with a pistol stuck
in his jeans, Mexican carry style.

You claim that you were asked what was in your hip pack, which I assume is where
you carry your gun. Also that someone was staring at a bulge of yours.
You may wish to reconsider your rig. Concealed means concealed.

Ever since I got my CHL I have tried to "make"
other CHL's. I have never seen one person that I could ID as CHL. Since there are
about 314,574 CHL's out of the Texas population of about 22,000,000, that means that
about 1 in 70 Texans has a CHL. So in a room of 70 people, someone's packing.

It's a big job to make all the non-compliant posted sites know that they should
post 30.06. The rest of us don't have the desire or the time to go there.

SIA

Good points. My daughter outed some guy in a restaurant during one of our "packing"/"not packing" games. ...of course we have no way of knowing if we are right or not, but he was wearing a hunters vest over a flannel shirt with NRA shooting patches and what not all over it, in warm weather, and a gimme cap with some kind of farm implement company on the front.

wgoforth wrote:

03Lightningrocks wrote:

wgoforth wrote:

03Lightningrocks wrote:

KC5AV wrote:You have hit upon one of many reasons why it's a good idea not to mention non-compliant signs. It gives them the opportunity to give you verbal notice that they don't want you there, and it gives them the opportunity to post a compliant sign.

As for whether you continue to carry/patronize the businesses, I can't really say.

Excellent point. Best to just keep ones mouth shut and carry concealed.

For the most part I would agree...but the problem here is that the authorities are the security and they agree with the idea that the sign is sufficient and that if your caught carrying you go to jail with a felony. Don't kid yourselves into thinking that experienced LEO's can't tell if someone is carrying. They may not be able to 100% of the time, but even many of us can while the general population cannot. If you see a guy with the same hip bag and fanny pack that you see in the gun shops it's a give away. Cops can spot that too. My point is that I want to educate the authorities and the mall here. Sure, we could beat the rap after hiring a lawyer and spending time in jail, but who needs that?? Again, I would normally agree to keep mouth shut. I have done that at many places...but when the mall and the police both agree, sounds like a perfect good-ol-boy system possibility to me.
Wayne

I don't think your getting it yet. If your caught carrying it means you have failed to conceal properly. Your going to get in trouble for failure to conceal. Sign or no sign. Seriously...the law is the law on this. Incorrect posting means you can carry. If you keep poking at the Tiger cage, your gonna get ate. Your going to have a fit if you walk in there and it is properly posted, thanks to your hard efforts and the help from the anti-gun cop you spoke with. It is probably natural for new CHL holders to feel like everyone can see the gun, but trust me...keep it under a shirt or vest and nobody will even come close to guessing you have a gun. Bulge in pocket for 99% of the population of Texas means keys or cell phone. your the only one that knows your bulge is a gun.

Some places post gun buster signs and what not to make the sheep feel safer. They really could not care less if you carry there. They also may be pulling a legal maneuver to avoid law suites if you blast someone in the mall with your CHL authorized weapon. Don't force them to properly post the place. Just keep your gun concealed and your mouth closed.

I will try this one more time then I will give up and do what I feel is best... if you see a guy with a fanny/hip pack you see in gun shops you know he's carrying even though the weapon is concealed, right? Now your saying if they know it's not concealed... is the pouch concealment or not? But since they go to gun shows too they know what it is. I have been around enough LEO's who have told me they can tell by the way a person walks, a lump under his shirt, etc that they are carrying. Do not assume I am new to this please. Actually, I would rather see a 30.06 and KNOW where I stand, than have a sign stuck in the back and police arrest me claiming I'm in a no gun zone. Again, yes I can get out of it.... but rather not get into it.
Wayne

LOL...well you have worn me out. Any Leo that has told you he can pick out who is carrying and who is not by the standards you mentioned above is full of poo. Fanny packs are worn by more Yuppies than they are by CHL'ers. I don't think you understood what I said. I said..Failure to conceal will get you arrested. That is not the same as a cop thinking you might have a gun because you walked with a limp and have a fanny pack. They have to see it to qualify as failure to conceal. Actually, at this point, your the only one who has been verbally notified not to carry in that mall....so you can't. The rest of us CHLers are free to exercise our right to carry in that mall. That is unless your successful in your goal to get the mall posted so we can't carry there either.

wgoforth wrote:

03Lightningrocks wrote:

KC5AV wrote:You have hit upon one of many reasons why it's a good idea not to mention non-compliant signs. It gives them the opportunity to give you verbal notice that they don't want you there, and it gives them the opportunity to post a compliant sign.

As for whether you continue to carry/patronize the businesses, I can't really say.

Excellent point. Best to just keep ones mouth shut and carry concealed.

For the most part I would agree...but the problem here is that the authorities are the security and they agree with the idea that the sign is sufficient and that if your caught carrying you go to jail with a felony. Don't kid yourselves into thinking that experienced LEO's can't tell if someone is carrying. They may not be able to 100% of the time, but even many of us can while the general population cannot. If you see a guy with the same hip bag and fanny pack that you see in the gun shops it's a give away. Cops can spot that too. My point is that I want to educate the authorities and the mall here. Sure, we could beat the rap after hiring a lawyer and spending time in jail, but who needs that?? Again, I would normally agree to keep mouth shut. I have done that at many places...but when the mall and the police both agree, sounds like a perfect good-ol-boy system possibility to me.
Wayne

I don't think your getting it yet. If your caught carrying it means you have failed to conceal properly. Your going to get in trouble for failure to conceal. Sign or no sign. Seriously...the law is the law on this. Incorrect posting means you can carry. If you keep poking at the Tiger cage, your gonna get ate. Your going to have a fit if you walk in there and it is properly posted, thanks to your hard efforts and the help from the anti-gun cop you spoke with. It is probably natural for new CHL holders to feel like everyone can see the gun, but trust me...keep it under a shirt or vest and nobody will even come close to guessing you have a gun. Bulge in pocket for 99% of the population of Texas means keys or cell phone. your the only one that knows your bulge is a gun.

Some places post gun buster signs and what not to make the sheep feel safer. They really could not care less if you carry there. They also may be pulling a legal maneuver to avoid law suites if you blast someone in the mall with your CHL authorized weapon. Don't force them to properly post the place. Just keep your gun concealed and your mouth closed.

wgoforth wrote:......When I was telling one of our church members tonight about our problem, he said he was going to write the mall and tell them no gun=no money from him.
Wayne

LOL...your kidding...right?

surprise_i'm_armed wrote:wgoforth:

Please, for the sake of the rest of the CHL's in your area, stop being such
a chatty Kathy about any place's non-compliant gun signs.

You are raising the awareness of the mall management that their signs are
not compliant. You told them about 30.06. They may be lining up the proper
30.06 signage right now. Then no CHL's will ever be able to carry again in there.

You couldn't know that the LEO you chatted up used to work security there,
but now if you are at the mall and he's visiting old friends there, you have outed
yourself as a CHL. His opinion is that you will be arrested, but the letter of the CHL
law says you're OK due to no proper 30.06.

Even a fish wouldn't get in trouble if he kept his mouth shut.

We are CHL's. Be vewwy vewwy quiet. Please don't wake the sleeping dogs
who post non-compliant gunbuster type signs. We don't need any more stinkin'
30.06's.

Thank you for your future silence.

SIA

My new favorite post.

KC5AV wrote:You have hit upon one of many reasons why it's a good idea not to mention non-compliant signs. It gives them the opportunity to give you verbal notice that they don't want you there, and it gives them the opportunity to post a compliant sign.

As for whether you continue to carry/patronize the businesses, I can't really say.

Excellent point. Best to just keep ones mouth shut and carry concealed.