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Unocat wrote:

Charles L. Cotton wrote:

Unocat wrote:
In effect, verbal notice is only as good as the recollection of those that, gave, received or overheard a verbal notice. Without corroborating evidence it isn't much and will be up to LE and maybe later a judge/jury to decide... A la the crap we see on judge Judy.

This is why it is important for business to post properly compliant signage. We should never be jerks about it, leave when told, and not press an owner into calling the cops, but verbal notice is not going to help anyone.

Sorry, but you are wrong. Verbal notice not to enter the property with a gun, or with an open-carried gun, is not "for a particular point in time." There's no statutory or case law basis for your position.

If the defendant admits he was told no to enter with a gun (or an openly carried gun) then his conviction is assured. If he claims he was never given oral notice, or that the oral notice specifically gave a limited duration, then it would be for the jury to decide if they believe the defendant or the property owner.

Chas.

Wasn't that exactly my point? - that a verbal notice is only as good as the recollections of those that were involved, save any recorded media. Even in the example you describe a person admitting they were given notice. Maybe that person doesn't remember, maybe the accused just doesn't take the stand and has his lawyer say it never happened... maybe, maybe, maybe. The point I was trying to make is that a compliant sign goes a long way toward a positive notification and leave little room for argument.

Unocat wrote:Example - I am sorry sir you can't carry your gun in here, please remove it and come back to us another time. - this is verbal notice for a particular point in time and without a permenant compliant sign, one could return just as other will inadvertently tread on this store's premise.

Unocat wrote:I do love how people are so adamant about calling each other wrong instead of reading, understanding, and discussing? Anyway this is a forum and no one is going to be able to interpret law save a court.

NTexCopRetired wrote:In my experience, criminal trespass has worked in this manner. Someone is ask to leave a property. They comply and come back later. The owner calls the police. If the individual is still there, the owner issues a criminal trespass warning in the presence of the officer. The officer should make a report and provide the owner with a case number. If the individual returns, the owner calls police, gives them the case number and the individual goes to jail.

If they do not leave initially, the process is shortened.

Criminal trespass with a weapon would most likely work the same way.

If they refuse to leave with the officer there, they are arrested then and there.

Unocat wrote:In regard to the permanency of a verbal instruction, it would really depend on the exact wording of the notification. Things change all the time and it is therefor that compliance by the business to the code is important.

Example - I am sorry sir you can't carry your gun in here, please remove it and come back to us another time. - this is verbal notice for a particular point in time and without a permenant compliant sign, one could return just as other will inadvertently tread on this store's premise.

Example 2 - sir, we don't allow open carry here. I am asking you to leave and not return with a openly carried pistol without talking to the management first - the case holds more weight as a semi-permanent, with condition notice.

Example 3 - excuse me, this store forbids the open carry of handguns pursuant to Texas code 30.07. I would like to also inform you that you are on camera and their is audio of my notice to you - this is not only sufficient, but their is evidence of a notice and I would not want to have that reviewed by a police office and then show up in court should I returned with open carry.

In effect, verbal notice is only as good as the recollection of those that, gave, received or overheard a verbal notice. Without corroborating evidence it isn't much and will be up to LE and maybe later a judge/jury to decide... A la the crap we see on judge Judy.

This is why it is important for business to post properly compliant signage. We should never be jerks about it, leave when told, and not press an owner into calling the cops, but verbal notice is not going to help anyone.

flintknapper wrote:
By encouraging the posting of compliant signage (clearly the easiest thing to do) I seek to avoid misunderstanding and unnecessary ‘second steps’, not create them!

flintknapper wrote:

If one does what you are suggesting, in practicality, what does one gain or accomplish? If you force the issue and they put up a compliant sign, you still won't be able to open carry there.

If they can not be persuaded to 'consider' Open Carry with a thoughtful, well written letter, then they will need to do one of two things.

1. Post a compliant sign....which clearly shows their intent, satisfies the LAW and creates an immediate trespass.
2. Post NO sign or a non-compliant sign and be forced to issue notice either verbally or in writing.

What is potentially "gained" is holding merchants to the same compliance standards we are held to and forcing them to consider IF it is worth it to them. If they are adamant about NO OC ....then nothing is 'lost' except some effort and time on our part. As you say...you still can't open carry there, so your point is somewhat moot in terms of OC. There IS something to be gained, but nothing lost.