Search found 3 matches

by Charles L. Cotton
Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:38 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: George R Brown Convention Center Houston - Offlimits to CC?
Replies: 26
Views: 5807

stevie_d_64 wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:Except as expressly set out in TPC §30.06, a 30.06 sign cannot be used to exclude an armed CHL from government-owned property or property leased by the government. Renting or leasing government property to a non-governmental entity or a person does not change this. This issue came up during discussion on SB501 and the language of the statute is very clear. It is the ownership (or leasing) of the property by a governmental entity that is controlling.

The argument that a lessee can post a valid 30.06 sign has it’s origin in Texas property law. A lessee/renter generally assumes all of the rights and responsibilities of the owner of the property, subject to any limitations in the lease/rental contract. The lessee/renter also takes the property subject to any statutory limitations and/or responsibilities. For example, if I rent a building with intent to open a bar, I cannot do so if the building is in a “dry� county. It doesn’t matter what is contained in my lease contract with the building owner, I cannot do that which the owner couldn’t do. Here is another example. If I sublet my office space to another attorney and move to another building, he can do anything I could have done, i.e. he’s subject to the terms and limitations in my lease with the building owner. Even if my sub-lease with him expressly states that he can have a fireplace in his office, he is still bound by the limitations in my contract with the building owner that forbids any open flames in the office.

No property owner can transfer greater rights than they possess, whether the property owner is a private entity or person, or a governmental entity. This argument is routinely used to thwart the clear language of TPC §30.06, but it’s invalid. However, here is the obligatory attorney’s warning - there is no case law on point, so we’re still waiting on the test case.

Chas.
So then it is clear that the posting of a 30.06 sign at a gunshow event in the GRB is illegal or non-binding then...

So if it is discovered that you busted that sign by entering an area that has been posted improperly, they should still arrest you, charge you, and thus force you (Mr. or Mrs. Test Case) spend lots of money defending yourself against these false charges, to have the court finally rule on your behalf against something that should not have been posted in the first place???

Isn't there a legal proceding, like a "friend of the court" to float a hypothetical case, before a court, that would rule over a "case" like this, without a citizen proving the point???

Or am I barking up a tree with no squirrels in it???
I can't get too far into the criminal procedure arena without merely guessing. However, since we're dealing with a private entity or person posting a sign and not arguably unlawful governmental conduct, I don't believe this issue could be pursued to an appellate court without an arrest and conviction. If we have any attorneys that practice criminal law here, please chime in if this is wrong.

Chas.
by Charles L. Cotton
Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:33 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: George R Brown Convention Center Houston - Offlimits to CC?
Replies: 26
Views: 5807

Replaced Texan wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:Except as expressly set out in TPC §30.06, a 30.06 sign cannot be used to exclude an armed CHL from government-owned property or property leased by the government. Renting or leasing government property to a non-governmental entity or a person does not change this. This issue came up during discussion on SB501 and the language of the statute is very clear. It is the ownership (or leasing) of the property by a governmental entity that is controlling.

Under what authority would the renter of the property then be able to prohibit CHL at his event?
None. If a private entity wants to host an event and does not want to allow CHL's to come armed, then they need to rent a privately-owned facility they can post.

Before anyone gets too upset with gun show promoters about 30.06 signs, it is my understanding that they can’t get insurance if they don’t prohibit loaded firearms on the premises. I’m not saying this is true, but this is what I was told by people who should know. Without insurance, it’s virtually impossible to rent space from anyone for an event, especially facilities owned by a governmental entity.

I don’t condone the improper posting of 30.06 signs, and I’ve made that position clear many times on this forum. I’m just pointing out the reality of the situation: no insurance = no gun show.

Chas.
by Charles L. Cotton
Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:41 am
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: George R Brown Convention Center Houston - Offlimits to CC?
Replies: 26
Views: 5807

Except as expressly set out in TPC §30.06, a 30.06 sign cannot be used to exclude an armed CHL from government-owned property or property leased by the government. Renting or leasing government property to a non-governmental entity or a person does not change this. This issue came up during discussion on SB501 and the language of the statute is very clear. It is the ownership (or leasing) of the property by a governmental entity that is controlling.

The argument that a lessee can post a valid 30.06 sign has it’s origin in Texas property law. A lessee/renter generally assumes all of the rights and responsibilities of the owner of the property, subject to any limitations in the lease/rental contract. The lessee/renter also takes the property subject to any statutory limitations and/or responsibilities. For example, if I rent a building with intent to open a bar, I cannot do so if the building is in a “dry� county. It doesn’t matter what is contained in my lease contract with the building owner, I cannot do that which the owner couldn’t do. Here is another example. If I sublet my office space to another attorney and move to another building, he can do anything I could have done, i.e. he’s subject to the terms and limitations in my lease with the building owner. Even if my sub-lease with him expressly states that he can have a fireplace in his office, he is still bound by the limitations in my contract with the building owner that forbids any open flames in the office.

No property owner can transfer greater rights than they possess, whether the property owner is a private entity or person, or a governmental entity. This argument is routinely used to thwart the clear language of TPC §30.06, but it’s invalid. However, here is the obligatory attorney’s warning - there is no case law on point, so we’re still waiting on the test case.

Chas.

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