Search found 6 matches

by The Annoyed Man
Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:41 pm
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: Quality Range Ammo .223/.556 for AR15
Replies: 41
Views: 7600

Re: Quality Range Ammo .223/.556 for AR15

DLuke00 wrote:Hey Cyphertext, my range does not allow steel. As much as I'm looking for cost effective ammo, I will not sacrifice accuracy and reliability for price! I am looking for accurate, quality and cost efficient ammo. I'm starting to teach my wife the workings of the AR. She hasn't shot yet and is a little intimidated of the rifle. I know once she passes a few rounds through, the uneasy feelings will pass! I really appreciate your and other views on this subject. Thank y'all!
In that case, you can buy remanufactured, US made brass cased, copper jacketed 55 grain FMJ for pretty cheap from any of a dozen different online outlets - at considerable savings.

Without being a "hater", I think the following is objectively accurate ......

If you:
  1. are very familiar with the AR platform and do not mind replacing major components like barrels at regular intervals, and
  2. you shoot thousands and thousands of rounds per year, and
  3. you are going to be a stickler for regular cleaning, and
  4. you are knowledgeable enough to keep your eye peeled for signs of wear/damage on minor consumables like extractors, extractor springs, cam pins, bolt gas rings, and bolt lugs,
....then it is fine to shoot as much of the cheap Russian import steel-cased ammo as you please. (CAVEAT: I know that Hornady manufactures high quality ammo, and I've used their brass-cased products for years, I do not have enough knowledge about their steel-cased ammo to offer an informed opinion.)

However, what we have here in the OP is a self-admitted complete newcomer to the AR world who is asking about "good quality range ammo" (quoting from his thread title). Being perfectly objective about it, ammo that tears up the rifle, dirties it excessively, has a higher rate of malfunction, and is only 4 MOA ammo from a presumably 2 MOA accurate AR, is not "quality range ammo", nor is it a good choice for the entry level shooter. When you're shooting 4 MOA ammo out of a rifle that ought not exceed 2 MOA, you cannot even reliably zero the rifle for good ammo. I would advise that newcomer to the AR world to spend a little more on better quality ammo until he at least has his rifle properly zeroed, and has become familiar with its functions and its inherent accuracy. Then if he so pleases, he can buy steel cased Russian import ammo in volume and use all he wants of it for plinking.

That said, keep in mind that 4 MOA at 100 yards is a 4" group. At 200 yards, it's an 8" group. At 400 yards, it's a 16" group. Etc., etc., etc. For a weapon that ought to have what I would call "combat accuracy" out to around 450-500 yards (assuming a carbine length barrel), that amounts to an 18"-20" group.......at which point, whomever/whatever you're shooting at has about 50/50 odds of being able to walk around upright safely without too much worry of being hit. It's too inaccurate to zero for that ammo if you prefer to use it, because of load inconsistency from cartridge to cartridge. And you can't switch back to high quality ammo mid-stream, so to speak, to regain accuracy because your zero will be worthless until you re zero for the better ammo. And the reverse is also true, that if you zero for the better ammo, and plink with the cheap ammo, then your zero is worthless for the cheap ammo. Again, I state all of this with the caveat that I have no experience with the Hornady steel-cased ammo, so it may be that none of the above applies to the Hornady. You'll have to test it to find out.

My advice to the newcomer who is tempted to use cheap Russian ammo is this: buy some good quality 55 grain ammo, zero your rifle for that, leave your zero alone after that and just figure out what the Kentucky windage and elevation hold offs ought to be for the cheap stuff, don't expect too much in the consistency of accuracy department, and just enjoy hearing your rifle go bang and hitting the target once in a while. That way you have an accuracy baseline that you can actually depend on. If you're using the rifle for self/home defense, keep the magazines charged with the ammo that matches your zero. The difference in cost between a 30 round mag full of Federal 55 grain and a 30 round mag full of Tula 55 grain is probably less than $5-$6, which is negligeable if your life is on the line.

For my own part, of my ARs, the barrel with the highest round count now sits installed in my wife's carbine and almost never gets shot anymore. It's a 1:9 twist Gov't profile carbine length barrel from ER Shaw. It probably didn't cost more than about $150 to $175 when I bought it brand new (it's so long ago that I don't remember the original cost) back in 2007 or 2008. That barrel probably doesn't have more than about 2,500 to 3,000 rounds through it. As I don't compete in any kind of matches, I just don't shoot that many rounds each year. I shoot frequently, but I have a lot of guns, and I don't shoot 100s of rounds each time I shoot each gun. So the round counts go up slowly. So in the end, I still don't spend LOTS of money on ammo when I'm at the range. And by buying it 1000 rounds at a time, it is very affordable, and I can afford better, more accurate ammo that way, that doesn't tear up my rifle, than buying the cheap import stuff.

To each his own, and I've tried to be objective here, but I guess my point is that if you're not a "range rat" who is always at the range shooting large volumes of ammo....which I am not.....then it is hard for me to use cost differential of the import ammo, barrel wear included in that differential, as a criterion, because I get MORE satisfaction out of shooting accurately at whatever distance I'm shooting at, than I get satisfaction out of the pennies saved per round fired. If it were some cheap AR I bought at Academy for $499, I would probably care less about that aspect of it; but all of my ARs were built by me (and my son), and the parts were carefully chosen for their intended purposes......especially the expensive match grade barrels I bought for some of them. The thought of burning out a $250 Rainier Select 5R Stainless sub-MOA match barrel by shooting a bunch of crap ammo through it just gives me the fantods.

OTH, if you're trying to do all of this on a very tight budget, then buy the cheap stuff. Just know that you're going to have to pay more attention to maintenance and replacement of "consumable" parts - regardless of how much you have invested in the initial firearm - and also know that you will not get your best accuracy potential out of the cheap stuff.

There is apparently an exception to the above which I read of recently, but it involved a Gun-Tests magazine article (may require a subscription to read the whole thing) comparing new-manufactured reproduction M1 Carbines from Inland and Auto-Ordnance in which some steel cased Tula 110 grain ammo compared favorably with offerings from IWI, Aguila, and Hornady. But the pressures and velocities are much lower for an M1 Carbine than they are for an AR15, so the stresses to the barrel are going to be lower.

DLuke00, everything that BOTH Bitter Clinger and cyphertext said is true........FOR THEM. I hope that what I've written above will help you to make the decision that works best FOR YOU.
by The Annoyed Man
Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:26 am
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: Quality Range Ammo .223/.556 for AR15
Replies: 41
Views: 7600

Re: Quality Range Ammo .223/.556 for AR15

DLuke00 wrote:Also, I'm looking for quality yet reasonable priced optics for my AR. All suggestions and experiences of yours are appreciated!!
"Optics" covers everything from a Red Dot Sight (RDS) to a long range sniping scope. You'll have to narrow down what you mean by "optics" to get more specific recommendations...... but here's some examples of what I mean......

Just looking at RDS:
  • UTG 3.9" ITA Red/Green CQB Dot Sight with Integral QD Mount, roughly $45
  • Bushnell Trophy TRS-25, roughly $70
  • Primary Arms Advanced Micro Dot, roughly $179
  • Vortex StrikeFire II, roughly $180
  • Vortex Sparc II, roughly $200
  • Aimpoint Carbine Optic Red Dot Sight, roughly $393
  • Aimpoint PRO Patrol Rifle Optic Red Dot Sight, roughly $437
  • Aimpoint Micro H-1 Red Dot Sight, roughly $630
  • Aimpoint Micro T-2 Red Dot Sight (2 MOA), roughly $883
ALL of these are small light simple red dot sights. As you can see, there is a HUGE array of prices, and I didn't even list all the different ones you can buy, and just limited myself to a representative sampling across a broad price range. I myself own a Primary Arms Advanced Micro Dot which is mounted on a Keltec Sub-2000 9mm carbine, and an Aimpoint Micro T-2 Red Dot Sight (2 MOA) which is mounted on a 2-stamp suppressed 10.5" .300 Blk SBR.

As in all things, generally speaking, you get what you pay for. Don't expect the quality, performance, and reliability out of a $45 UTG that you would get out of a $200 Vortex, or a $630 Aimpoint H-1.

.....and that's just unmagnified Red Dot Sights. There are also a plethora of fixed power magnified optics with prices well above $1,000 (Trijicon ACOG and Elcan), and fixed power magnified optics (Burris AR series) down around $200-$300. Then there are all the lower power variable power scopes in the 1-4x, 1-5x, 1-6x, and 1-8x range. And lets mention medium power variable power scopes in the 3-9x range. And then there are the long range scopes with much higher magnification ranges.

It really boils down to this: What kind of AR15 are on you the market for, and what do you intend to use it for? If you can be more specific about your AR's configuration and primary uses, then we can give you much more specific recommendations about optics.
by The Annoyed Man
Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:59 pm
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: Quality Range Ammo .223/.556 for AR15
Replies: 41
Views: 7600

Re: Quality Range Ammo .223/.556 for AR15

cyphertext wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:I would amend the above to make sure to only buy brass-cased ammo. I know that plenty of people shoot the steel-cased varnished stuff, but the .223/5.56 case doesn't have enough taper to use that kind of ammo reliably. I've seen WAY too many fired steel cases stuck in AR barrels that wouldn't extract for love or money......some times so badly that running a rod down the barrel and trying to tap the case out won't remove it. Then you need a gunsmith with a chamber reamer. Brass cases OTH have natural lubricity and are very good at extracting cleanly.

Steel cased ammo is fine for AK pattern rifles because the case has a pronounced taper and extracts easily.
I'm going to respectfully disagree... while this was true in the past, steel cased ammo today is no longer covered in lacquer. Also, back when folks would get steel cases stuck in the chamber, most were shooting 20" rifles. With a carbine length gas system, and the higher pressures involved, reliable extraction can be achieved using steel cased ammo. Add in the O-ring enhanced extractor and I doubt you will have any issues.

And remember, not all steel cased ammo is created equally... there is a big difference between Tula and Hornady Steel Match, and a price difference that matches as well.
I have no experience with the Hornady steel case ammo specifically, but I can tell you that every single AR I've ever seen with a stuck steel case that wouldn't extract, was a 16" carbine, and the ammo was cheap Russian stuff. Carbine length gas system is assumed for most or all of them, since, (A) that would be statistically most likely, and (B) at least to MY eyes, the people I saw shooting carbines that got stuck were did not appear to be all that sophisticated about ARs, and might not have known that they could buy/build a carbine with a mid-length gas system. I'm sure it does happen to owners of ARs in other lengths, but I have personally only seen it happen to carbines.
by The Annoyed Man
Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:15 pm
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: Quality Range Ammo .223/.556 for AR15
Replies: 41
Views: 7600

Re: Quality Range Ammo .223/.556 for AR15

rotor wrote:Anyone use the Wolf brass .223?
Haven't tried it yet.
by The Annoyed Man
Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:42 am
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: Quality Range Ammo .223/.556 for AR15
Replies: 41
Views: 7600

Re: Quality Range Ammo .223/.556 for AR15

Soccerdad1995 wrote:
howdy wrote:I use Freedom Munitions .223 re-manufactured rounds. They work great. https://www.freedommunitions.com/ammuni ... reman.html. If you live in the Houston area, they have a store at 290 and Jones Road.
I like Freedom Munitions as well. They also give a 5% veterans discount.

If you don't mind having the ammo shipped, LAX ammo is of a similar quality, usually a bit cheaper, and they don't collect sales tax.
I recently bought a 1000 rounds from BiteTheBullet.com, and paid $261.99/1000 for remanufactured 55 grain FMJ, shipping from Las Vegas, Nevada. The same thing from Freedom Munitions is $290.00/1000, shipping from Lewiston, Idaho. The quality is about the same.....they both use Hornady FMJ bullets, but the total cost freight included is somewhat cheaper from Bite the Bullet. I like Freedom Arms and have bought a ton of ammo from them, but I'm going to give Bite the Bullet a try for a while. Their 9mm ball is pretty cheap too.
by The Annoyed Man
Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:10 am
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: Quality Range Ammo .223/.556 for AR15
Replies: 41
Views: 7600

Re: Quality Range Ammo .223/.556 for AR15

I would amend the above to make sure to only buy brass-cased ammo. I know that plenty of people shoot the steel-cased varnished stuff, but the .223/5.56 case doesn't have enough taper to use that kind of ammo reliably. I've seen WAY too many fired steel cases stuck in AR barrels that wouldn't extract for love or money......some times so badly that running a rod down the barrel and trying to tap the case out won't remove it. Then you need a gunsmith with a chamber reamer. Brass cases OTH have natural lubricity and are very good at extracting cleanly.

Steel cased ammo is fine for AK pattern rifles because the case has a pronounced taper and extracts easily.

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