TexasCHLforum.com

Embalmo wrote:Why would anyone care about a business owner's legal carry opinion? Legal carry is about the legal right to carry a firearm for personal protection as often, and in as many places as possible. It's my belief that anyone foolish enough to restrict legal carry in their business is placing all of its patrons in danger, so, I'm not going to respect their "wishes" if their signage in non-compliant.

Embalmo

bingo.

Mel wrote:

Kiddkop wrote:I find it somewhat amusing that people believe they have an obligation beginning 9/1 to report government entities for improper 30.06 but don't believe they have an obligation to notify private business owner. Maybe if there was a fine associated with unenforceable signage folks would think it was the right thing to do.

Big difference between unenforceable and illegal. After 9/1/15 these signs will be illegal. There is no reason to report an unenforceable sign.

Ima hafta to say "show me". An invalid sign is not an "illegal" sign. Are you saying that there is a penalty under the law for posting an invalid sign when the new law goes into effect? You're saying that, beginning 9/1, a gunbuster's sign will land the business owner in jail? That makes no kind of sense.

And by the way, isn't 1/1/16 the implementation date for the new carry law, not 9/1/15?

EEllis wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote:

EEllis wrote:While I wouldn't bring a non compliant sign to the attention of a business to scoff about how they got it wrong or to correct them I disagree that there is something wrong with bringing a non compliant sign up with a business.
if someone is truly anti then I want to know to be able to decide how I spend my money. I can't do that if I don't know if posting an unenforceable sign is intentional or not. That is just one reason I could see possibly approaching a business. There are others. We each make our own choices you will not make mine for me. And no one else should feel pressured by people on here about their choice either.

How about this angle then....... if you see a non-compliant sign, go ahead and approach the manager and tell him you are leaving and won't be shopping there because of the anti-2nd Amendment attitude displayed in his sign...... but DON'T educate him about the sign's non-compliance! That way, you get to express your displeasure, and you don't ruin it for other CHLs who might want to still shop there. Go ahead and make that decision for yourself, but don't force your decision on others by educating the owner/manager about the sign.

Umm, no.

jimlongley wrote:I still don't understand what is being ruined?

Your chance to give an obvious anti-gun nut your money?

Your chance to give an obvious anti-gun nut who can't even be bothered to comply with the law your money?

You chance to give an obvious anti-gun nut who can't even be bothered to comply with the law and would gleefully see to it that you were incarcerated for the rest of your life and your guns confiscated and ground up and buried your money.

If they have a non-compliant sign I am informing them. Of the number of times I have done this, I have only seen the signage change twice, and that was when Bass Pro shops TOOK DOWN their signs in response to my complaint and the city of Plano removed theirs. Not one other has ever replaced a non-compliant sign with a compliant one.

That these people are exposing their ignorance is a source for our mirth, but don't think for a second that they wouldn't hesitate to at least attempt to prosecute you if you are discovered on their property in defiance of their sign, and if it happens to be an anti- gun nut cop who shows up, you can bet you'll take the ride.

When you push - through your actions, not mine - a anti-gun owner into posting a compliant sign, you have taken away one of MY options, which you don't have the moral authority to do to me.

I get it. I don't want stores to post signs at all. I am NOT in favor of them. But, some stores are going to, and it is MY right to choose whether to withhold my dollars or not from that store. When you educate such a store owner into replacing his invalid gunbusters sign with a valid 30.06 sign, you have removed from ME the option to carry into his store if I want to. I WON'T carry past a valid sign, and I WILL withhold my business from a store with a valid sign. But if they have a simple gunbusters sign on the door - as does my bank of many years for instance - and YOU walk in there and inform them that their sign is invalid and that they have to post a valid 30.06 sign, now I have to change banks - no thanks to you. In other words, it is your actions that will have caused a previously nonexistent burden to be placed on my life - not the ignorant store owner's. He might have been content to just let things ride with the gunbusters sign. My local bank is just one branch in a larger corporation. The gunbuster sign on the door may have zero to do with the personal convictions of a single one of the employees, from the president on down. In fact, none of the original employees who worked there when I opened my accounts are still working there. It may have been purely a corporate decision. But if you go in there and make a big deal out of it to the president/manager, they may refer it up the chain of command to corporate, and a decision may come down to post valid signage.....and I have to change banks.....thank you very much.

If you can't see that, then I can't help you.........but do me a favor then and stay out of my neck of the woods and don't force any of MY local merchants into posting correct signage. And I will promise to do the same for you.

Kiddkop wrote:If the company and its reps know a sign is not enforceable and truly don't mind if a CHLer is carrying....then it would not create a problem is someone pointed out the sign is not enforceable. Hence my original comment, I don't understand the point of this post and I definitely don't know why advising someone is dumber than a bag of hammers.

Sigh...... Again......I did not call anybody dumber than a bag of hammers. I said that a certain action is dumber than a bag of hammers. Are you going to tell me that you never did anything dumb in your life? Not ever? If that's your position, then I don't believe it. But like I said above, just because you did something dumb once in your life, that does not make you a dumb person. In this case, I am categorically stating that it is stupid to educate an ignorant business owner about their sign's non-compliance, because it will result in all CHLs being barred from the store. WHY would you want to do that if you could express your displeasure at the sign, and communicate your intention to not shop there anymore, WITHOUT screwing things up for other CHLs who might want to shop there? That would be along the lines of "If I can't shop there, then nobody's going to shop there". That's not a decision you or I would have the moral authority to make on behalf of all CHLs. If MY actions had resulted in getting YOU barred from entering the store while armed, I would EXPECT you to tell me I had been stupid.

You read more into my post than I wrote.

george wrote:I think calling people who don't agree with your point of view "dumb" is over the line.

I never called anybody dumb, so you're not correctly understanding what I said. I said that it was dumb to educate anti-2nd amendment business owners about how to keep you out of their stores.....particularly when it will affect more people than just you. That IS a dumb act. But just because you do something stupid (I have done stupid things in my life, just as pretty much everybody who is a member of this form has done at some point in their life), doesn't mean that you are chronically stupid. Smart people make stupid mistakes once in a while. Are you suggesting that they should not be called on it, particularly if their stupid mistake might affect me (or you)? That's not a realistic expectation. If I do something stupid, I expect to get called on it........and I'm not a stupid person. If I see a smart person do something stupid that might affect me, I'll call them on it. That's not being disrespectful at all. That's being smart. And smart people are usually glad when someone points out a potential error before they commit it.

EEllis wrote:While I wouldn't bring a non compliant sign to the attention of a business to scoff about how they got it wrong or to correct them I disagree that there is something wrong with bringing a non compliant sign up with a business.
if someone is truly anti then I want to know to be able to decide how I spend my money. I can't do that if I don't know if posting an unenforceable sign is intentional or not. That is just one reason I could see possibly approaching a business. There are others. We each make our own choices you will not make mine for me. And no one else should feel pressured by people on here about their choice either.

How about this angle then....... if you see a non-compliant sign, go ahead and approach the manager and tell him you are leaving and won't be shopping there because of the anti-2nd Amendment attitude displayed in his sign...... but DON'T educate him about the sign's non-compliance! That way, you get to express your displeasure, and you don't ruin it for other CHLs who might want to still shop there. Go ahead and make that decision for yourself, but don't force your decision on others by educating the owner/manager about the sign.

A search of this forum will find numerous posts where a well-intended member, speaking out of conviction in favor of the 2nd Amendment, has felt the need to inform a business owner that his signs were meaningless to a CHL. The most vocal of them even feel the need to inform the business owner exactly what kind of sign is needed to keep a CHL out.

Let me state very clearly:

• THAT IS JUST DUMBER THAN A BAG OF HAMMERS!!!!

If you see an invalid sign, just smile and walk on past it. Do NOT screw things up for the rest of us by giving voice to some need to smugly inform the uninformed of how ignorant they are.........and then proceed to TEACH them the right way to do it. Just smile and walk on by.

Here's the deal......... ANYTHING you do or don't do as a CHL has consequences for all other CHLs.......INCLUDING the actual use of your firearm in self-defense. We are on an arc toward greater gun-rights freedom in Texas, but if you mess something up, you can set things back for at least some of us. It may not be fair, but it is true. When MLK led the civil rights movement, he called for, AND EXPECTED, a higher level of sobriety and wisdom of behavior from his acolytes. His movement absolutely depended on moral authority, and it is nearly impossible to convince people that you stand on the moral high ground unless you give them a reason to believe it in how you act. It may be unfair to be held to a higher standard, but perception counts for a lot with uninformed people, and how they perceive YOU may have a strong influence on how they perceive gun rights.

In that light, what does it tell a business owner who has posted an invalid sign when you come strutting up and tell him his sign has no bearing on YOU?

1. It tells him/her "I have a gun, and you can't stop me........on your own property".
2. It tells him/her "You were too stupid to do your research."
3. It tells him/her "Here's what you have to do to get rid of me."

Answer honestly..... you are that business owner who does not want guns in his/her business, and someone walks up to you and drops those three dimes on you...... How are YOU going to react? The honest answer is the obvious answer:

• "I'm going to research the definition of a 'compliant' sign, and then I'm going to post a compliant sign. Secondarily, at my next networking/Chamber meeting, I'm going to share this information I've learned with all the other business owners whom I call "friend" (because we share the same views), so that THEY can all post THEIR businesses with a compliant sign."

Don't do it!