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by The Annoyed Man
Fri May 15, 2015 9:42 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: New Pocket Gun KelTec P9
Replies: 50
Views: 10192

Re: New Pocket Gun KelTec P9

ShootDontTalk wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote: My own dislike for the brand isn't because I'm a brand snob. It is because I'm looking at it like a businessman. I see a gun company that in practical terms could have made better guns, but it doesn't. And it doesn't because it's business model has trapped it into not being able to. Innovation is a good thing, but even gun designers like JMB and Stoner found employment with companies that could afford to produce their superior designs. For my money, the smartest thing that Kel-Tec could do at this point would be for them to license their RFB and RD8 designs to another company that can afford to produce them in quantities with prices set to economies of scale under a more "reputable" brand-name, collect all those royalties and plow them back into significantly upgrading their pistol line to appeal to a market that is willing to pay more for a better pistol. But that's just me.
I get your point, but I just don't see self defense as a business proposition. If that were the case, I'd have a whole world of problems with Smith & Wesson and a lot of others. As I stated, to me EDC is only about one thing. How much better would a more expensive product save my life?
That's important for me too, but I was just trying to describe why I'm not a fan of that company. And sure, S&W had teething problems with the Shield, as did Springfield with the XDS, but both companies were well enough funded to address the issues they had. I don't think Kel-Tec is well enough funded to do that....and so in a sense, self defense is bit of a business proposition. It is easier for Kel-Tec to continue to produce guns that crack their slides and just replace the slide when customers complain than it is for them to fix the problem at the source and either change the design or the metallurgy to stop cracks from happening in the first place. That is what makes a business proposition into a self-defense issue. The former solution costs less than the best solution. If KT were able to get that kind of funding, they would be able to address the issues and produce a pistol that competes with the next tier of manufacturers up the food chain. Will the one time I need to rely on the PF9 be the time the slide flies apart? I don't have to worry about that with other pocket 9s that have had their teething problems addressed.

BUT..... All of that said, if I had to choose between leaving the house unarmed, or leaving with a PF9, I'd take the PF9 for sure. On the other hand, silverbear has an excellent suggestion that nobody has mentioned yet (me included), and that is a J-frame or similar sized revolver. And you can get those in 9mm too. I pocket carried my M&P340 to dinner tonight. Mine is a .357, but Ruger makes a 9mm snubbie for $619. Charter Arms makes the $496 Pitbull in 9mm. S&W used to make a 9mm Centennial, which is a fine pistol, and you can probably still find used ones around.
by The Annoyed Man
Fri May 15, 2015 12:55 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: New Pocket Gun KelTec P9
Replies: 50
Views: 10192

Re: New Pocket Gun KelTec P9

ShootDontTalk wrote:Nothing personal here but.....I always find it fascinating when people who have zero actual experience with something pontificate based solely on what they read on that bastion of truth, the Internet. I dare say 15 minutes searching will turn up lots of negative comments on almost everything ever made. Most people who have been around guns for a while know that every major manufacturer has problems now and then. Some use customers for their QA. Tell me I'm mistaken.
WRT this thread's topic, I posted a bunch of manufacturers' information, including Kel-Tec's.

I have owned a Kel-Tec, a P3AT, and I found it disappointing. But, it wasn't a P9, so I can't speak to that gun's reliability. That said, when compared to a lot of other guns in that market niche of affordable pocket guns, the Kel-Tecs that I've handled were not as well-made as the competition's. Mine used to pop the magazine out from the grip almost every time I carried it, and sometimes even when I shot it. It was painful to shoot because it kept barking the knuckles of my trigger finger. The sights were, for practical purposes, non-existent. It was strictly a "belly gun". Being a hammer fired semiauto, it was problematic for firing from a jacket pocket or through a purse (for my wife). And, the takedown process, while simple to understand, was difficult to execute. On the upside, it was dirt cheap. So, if dirt cheap is all you can afford, then you can still arm yourself by purchasing a small Kel-Tec. That's not a bad thing. People with less money should have access to affordable guns.

Kel-Tec has developed a few interesting and innovative guns, among them, the RFB bullpup .308 rifle, the RDB bullpup 5.56 NATO rifle, the KSG shotgun, and the PMR-30 .22 Magnum pistol. Against that record of innovation, they have never been able to meet the production demands of the market for their innovations; consequently the guns in question tended to hit the market at FAR more than their actual value as a firearm. And then there were issues with build quality once the production units actually went out to the retail buyers. When your bullpup rifle has an MSRP of $1,929.00, and people are lining up to pay $2,300 for one, you'd hope they actually ran reliably out of the box. Then, when the word gets out that the model in question is overpriced and underperforms, the demand falls off and customers start looking at other brands. My son has worked in a gun store for a couple of years now, and there has been a KSG shotgun in the display counter since day one. The owner managed to get 3 or 4 of them into the store back when they first came out and were rare as hen's teeth, but when the novelty wore off, he wasn't able to move all of them, and now who wants a 2 year old KSG, when the owner has to sell it at a certain price that nobody wants to pay for them anymore?

It strikes me that Kel-Tec is probably very underfunded. They are able to mass-produce cheap guns for a profit, but they're up against a two edged sword because 1) while profitable, the quality of their small carry guns just isn't there to justify prices higher than they are already charging for them; and 2) there isn't enough profit from the sale of the cheap handguns to fund bringing to market their "premium" products like the RFB and RDB. ALSO, they've been designing/advertising/selling higher end items for several years now. To walk away from that market segment is to admit defeat, which no company can afford to do without taking a hit to the company's value.......plus, to walk away from that market is to tell all those customers who did pay too much for your products that you won't support those products anymore in terms of parts and services. That would hurt their pistol sales.

So, Kel-Tec is in a bind, in my humble opinion. They can't afford to charge more for their pistols because they're not worth more. I understand the vision - to sell cheap affordable guns - but it turns out to be a flawed business plan. Because they can't charge more, they can't afford to sink capital into selling better guns. So they are stuck.

I won't even get into the details of KEL-TEC KABOOMS.

My own dislike for the brand isn't because I'm a brand snob. It is because I'm looking at it like a businessman. I see a gun company that in practical terms could have made better guns, but it doesn't. And it doesn't because it's business model has trapped it into not being able to. Innovation is a good thing, but even gun designers like JMB and Stoner found employment with companies that could afford to produce their superior designs. For my money, the smartest thing that Kel-Tec could do at this point would be for them to license their RFB and RD8 designs to another company that can afford to produce them in quantities with prices set to economies of scale under a more "reputable" brand-name, collect all those royalties and plow them back into significantly upgrading their pistol line to appeal to a market that is willing to pay more for a better pistol. But that's just me.
by The Annoyed Man
Fri May 15, 2015 11:16 am
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: New Pocket Gun KelTec P9
Replies: 50
Views: 10192

Re: New Pocket Gun KelTec P9

ralewis, check this out: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=77609" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
by The Annoyed Man
Fri May 15, 2015 9:01 am
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: New Pocket Gun KelTec P9
Replies: 50
Views: 10192

Re: New Pocket Gun KelTec P9

TVGuy wrote:
2farnorth wrote:I have carried a PF9 since about 2011. Initially had problems with WWB and SB ammo. All others worked great. Last year I noticed a small crack starting on the slide and sent it back to KelTec. They replaced the entire gun and the replacement has been outstanding. No FTE's or any other "jams". The quality of the bluing is much better also. Overall, I'd buy another if I had the need.
I quit the KTOG board so I haven't kept up with what's going on with KT's products now
See, here's the problem.

First of all, if a gun doesn't like one brand of ammo that's one thing. If you start striking out various makes, that's a problem.

More importantly, a slide should not crack, especially after two years. Of course they sent you a new one. It was defective and if they didn't and you continued to use it and blew your hand off you would have a serious liability suit against them. They make them so cheaply that they can still fully replace guns and turn a profit.
THIS ^^

And the thing is, with a pocket carried gun, even with a pocket holster, that gun is going to get nasty pretty quickly. Lint, sweat, dirt, you name it.....whatever gets into your pocket gets into your gun. Me? I'm not ashamed to say that during the summer months I'm a big time baby powder guy. If you've got anything like that on your body, it's going to get on your gun - even in a belt holster - along with any other dust and schmutz. So, a stainless steel slide is important to me, and all of the various pistols I carry either have stainless slides and polymer frames, or are manufactured of a non-ferrous metal.
  • XDM-45 Compact 3.8 - stainless slide & barrel, polymer frame
  • XDS-45 3.3 - stainless slide & barrel, polymer frame
  • PM9 - "black diamond" coated stainless slide, polymer frame (BTW, mine is the "black with night sights version, MSRP $987)
  • M&P45 Full Size - melonite coated stainless slide, polymer frame
  • M&P340 .357 - scandium frame, melonite coated stainless steel cylinder
Type of metal and coatings are something you will want to consider in purchasing a pocketable pistol.

And by the way, the Glock site is back up, and here are the specs on the Glock 43:
http://us.glock.com/products/model/g43
Image
9x19 / Safe Action
Dimensions
LENGTH:
159 mm / 6.26 in.
WIDTH:
26 mm / 1.02 in.
LENGTH BETWEEN SIGHTS:
132 mm / 5.20 in
HEIGHT:
108 mm / 4.25 in.
BARREL HEIGHT:
n/a
BARREL LENGTH:
86 mm / 3.39 in.

Weights
UNLOADED:
509 g / 17.95 oz.
LOADED:
634 g / 22.36 oz.
Trigger Pull / Travel
TRIGGER PULL:
~2.5 kg / ~5.5 lbs.
TRIGGER TRAVEL:
~12.5 mm / ~0.49 in.
Barrel Rifling / Length of Twist
BARREL RIFLING:
right hand, hexagonal
LENGTH OF TWIST:
250 mm / 9.84 in.
Magazine Capacity:
STANDARD: 6
MSRP: $529

If I didn't already own a pocketable 9mm, I would give that Glock a long hard look.
by The Annoyed Man
Fri May 15, 2015 8:10 am
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: New Pocket Gun KelTec P9
Replies: 50
Views: 10192

Re: New Pocket Gun KelTec P9

All prices listed here are MSRP. Nobody pays MSRP. I could not get the Glock USA page to load this morning, so none of their models are included in this list. In no particular order.....

Kel-Tec PF9
Image
Weight unloaded: 12.7 oz.
Loaded magazine: 2.8 oz.
Length: 5.85"
Height: 4.3"
Width: 0.88"
Barrel Length: 3.1"
Capacity: 7 + 1
Trigger Pull: 5 lbs
MSRP $356.36

Kahr CM9
Image
Caliber: 9mm
Capacity: 6+1
Operation: Trigger cocking DAO; lock breech; "Browning - type" recoil lug; passive striker block; no magazine disconnect
Barrel: 3.0", conventional rifling; 1 - 10 right-hand twist
Length O/A: 5.42"
Height: 4.0"
Slide Width: .90"
Weight: Pistol 14 ounces, Magazine 1.9 ounces
Grips: Textured polymer
Sights: Drift adjustable, white bar-dot combat sights
Finish: Black polymer frame, matte stainless steel slide
Magazine: 1 - 6 rd flush floorplate
MSRP: $460 (I know for a fact that these are retail priced in the $350-$399 range)

Kahr PM9 - virtually identical to pistol above, but more refined, and MSRP $800...

Beretta BU9 Nano
Image
Action Striker
Barrel length (mm) 78
Barrel length (in) 3
Caliber 9x19 (PARA)
Magazine 6
Overall height (mm) 106
Overall height (in) 4.17
Overall length (mm) 143
Overall length (in) 5.63
Overall width (mm) 23
Overall width (in) 0.9
Weight unloaded (g) 562
Weight unloaded (OZ) 19.8
MSRP (most models): $450

Ruger LC9
Image
Caliber: 9mm Luger
Capacity: 7+1
Barrel Length: 3.12"
Barrel Material: Alloy Steel
Barrel Finish Blued
Slide Material Through-Hardened Alloy Steel
Slide Finish Blued
Grip Frame Black, High Performance, Glass-Filled Nylon
Width 0.90"
Height 4.50"
MSRP: $449

Smith & Wesson M&P Shield
Image
Caliber: 9mm
Capacity: 7 Round & 8 Round
Action: Striker Fire
Barrel Length: 3.1" / 7.874 cm
Front Sight: White Dot
Rear Sight: White 2-Dot
Overall Length: 6.1" / 15.5 cm
Frame Width: .95" / 2.413 cm
Overall Height: 4.6" / 11.684 cm
Weight: 19.0 oz / 538.7 g
Frame Material: Polymer
Barrel/Slide Finish: Black 68 HRc
Trigger Pull: 6.5 lbs. +/-
Sight Radius: 5.3" / 13.3 cm
MSRP: $449

Springfield XDS-9
Image
CALIBER
9mm
RECOIL SYSTEM
Dual Spring w/ Full Length Guide Rod
SIGHTS
Fiber Optic Front & Dovetail Rear (Steel)
WEIGHT (WITH EMPTY MAGAZINE)
23 ozs.
HEIGHT
4.4"
SLIDE
Forged Steel, Melonite® Finish
BARREL
3.3" Steel, Melonite®, Hammer Forged
LENGTH
6.3"
GRIP WIDTH
.9"
FRAME
Black Polymer
MAGAZINES
1 - 7 Round Flush Fitting, 1 - 8 Round With Mid-Mag X-Tension™, Stainless Steel
MSRP: $599

Kimber Solo
Image
Specifications
Caliber: 9mm
Height (inches) 90° to barrel: 3.9
Weight (ounces) with empty magazine: 17
Length (inches): 5.5
Magazine capacity: 6 rounds
Frame
Material: Aluminum
Finish: Matte Black
Width (inches): 1.14
Slide
Material: Stainless steel
Finish: Satin silver
Barrel
Length (inches): 2.7
Material: Stainless steel
Twist rate (left hand): 10
Sights
Fixed low profile
Radius (inches): 4.4
Grips
Black synthetic
Checkered / smooth
Trigger
Double action striker- fired
Factory setting (approximate pounds): 7
MSRP:$815.00

Sig P938
Image
Caliber 9mm
Action Type SAO
Trigger Pull DA N/A
Trigger Pull SA 7.5-8.5 lbs
Overall Length 5.9 in
Overall Height 3.9 in
Overall Width 1.1 in
Barrel Length 3.0 in
Sight Radius 4.2 in
Weight w/Mag 16.0 oz
Mag Capacity 7 Rounds
Sights SIGLITE Night Sights
Grips Black Rubber Wrap Around Grips
Frame Finish Black Hard Anodized
Slide Finish Nitron®
Accessory Rail No
Features Ambi-Safety, Beavertail style frame, Black rubber wrap around grip, 7 Round extended mag
MSRP $836.00

Taurus PT 709
Image
Model: 709FS
Finish: Blue
Status: Available
Caliber: 9 mm
Grips: Checkered Polymer
UPC: 7-25327-61066-3
Capacity: 7 +1
Weight: 19 oz
Barrel Length: 3"
Frame: Compact
Action: SA/DA
Front Sight: Fixed
Length: 6"
Order #: 1-709031FS
MSRP: $403.98

By way of comparison, I own both a Kahr PM9 and a Springfield XDS-45, which is the exact same size as the XDS-9. The following pictures compare both of those pistols in size to a Springfield XDM-45 Compact 3.8, which is a double stack compact sized pistol, similar in size to a Glock 30.

Left to right: PM9, XDS-45 3.3, XDM-45 Compact 3.8
Image

Top to bottom: PM9, XDS-45 3.3, XDM-45 Compact 3.8
Image

Top to bottom: XDM-45 Compact 3.8, XDS-45 3.3, PM9
Image

It is worth noting that when you compare just the two smaller pistols side by side, the Springfield is about 1/8" taller, and only 1/2" longer. The Kahr is a for sure pocket pistol, but the Springfield can be pocketed. It's just a bit heavier.

Hopefully this information will help you to see that there are lots of alternatives, without sacrificing quality, and they run the gamut from pretty affordable to pretty expensive.

(EDITED TO CORRECT A "THERE/THEIR" TYPO - TAM)
by The Annoyed Man
Fri May 15, 2015 7:09 am
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: New Pocket Gun KelTec P9
Replies: 50
Views: 10192

Re: New Pocket Gun KelTec P9

jmra wrote:I guess if I'm going to knock a firearm I should recommend some alternatives.
Pocket carry is very subjective. Some people can pocket carry a double stack 9 like a G26 (I cannot) and some people can't pocket carry a .22 derringer. So I will try to keep my recommendations to subcompact single stack 9s.
The first that comes to mind is the CM9 which I think is actually a little smaller than the PF9 IIRC. Others that fall into the $300 - $400 range would be the Nano, LC9, And the M&P Shield.
Others that will be well north of $400 include PM9, Sig P938, G43, and the Kimber Solo.
I'm not a huge Tauras fan either, but I would carry the PT 709 before I would the PF9.
Springfield XDS-9 is another one.

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