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by The Annoyed Man
Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:00 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Present CHL to Border Patrol?
Replies: 75
Views: 15559

Re: Present CHL to Border Patrol?

fickman wrote:I normally like to poke at the French, but I want to rescind this joke today and stand with them as they (along with some basic freedoms like speech, the press, expression, and religion) have come under attack.

I hope they see justice done, and I hope the have brave men and women who refuse to cower to these terrorists.
I just saw that. I think it is high time that the world's civilized nations begin moving mountains to crush terrorism. I also think that it is high time that civilized nations stop using the language of diplomacy and call out nations that either host or fund it. Iran wants to support it? Fine. Drop a bomb on their ass.

Other than that, I have no opinion.
by The Annoyed Man
Wed Jan 07, 2015 3:55 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Present CHL to Border Patrol?
Replies: 75
Views: 15559

Re: Present CHL to Border Patrol?

Dadtodabone wrote:I'm glad you enjoyed my post. I was trying to provide some interesting facts in a manner that was light and enjoyable. The exchange of opinion that followed it, however, forever changed how I view our government and some who serve it.
As did my own experience at DFW.
by The Annoyed Man
Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:32 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Present CHL to Border Patrol?
Replies: 75
Views: 15559

Re: Present CHL to Border Patrol?

fickman wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:
fickman wrote:
HadEmAll wrote:Would YOU have presented your CHL along with other Identification, if asked by a Federal, not state or local law enforcement officer, such as this Border Patrol officer?
No.

I'll join the ranks of those who, when not engaged in crossing a border, would not provide any information to a border patrol officer. Not even an answer to the citizenship question. I would do so with the greatest amount of courtesy, respect, politeness, and resolve.
With all due respect, easier said than done sometimes. Put yourself in my shoes above. That happened at DFW, hundreds of miles from the nearest border. Would you be so obstinate then?
I was including going through customs at the airport as "crossing a border". This is where I expect and want ICE to be active.
And so you think the way I was treated was acceptable? You've met me in person. In no way do I resemble a terrorist. I am a white-haired older white male who looked at the time like Col Sanders, and who has a somewhat southern accent, and who, with the exception of 4 trips to France over the previous 53 years (I was 53 at the time), two of which were when I was either an infant or a minor child and the last of which was 35 years prior to this one, had lived his entire life in the United States........and could prove it.......and DID prove it.......repeatedly each time they asked those questions differently......and yet I was treated like the subject of a criminal investigation instead of like an American citizen, grateful to be home after having spent a month overseas.

I'm all for being asked to show my passport and any other ID at a port of entry.......BUT MY PASSPORT AND ID WERE IN ORDER, and I correctly answered all questions BEFORE I was taken aside and interrogated. I didn't have lots of luggage, or not enough luggage, to be suspicious. I had one normal piece of checked luggage and a carry on bag. It begs the question: "IF a new but plainly legitimate passport is reason for suspicion, WHY would any American want to get one and then leave the country on a vacation?" At this point, we begin edging closer and closer to cold-war Moscow. SURE, you could legally leave the country for legal reasons, but the hassle was so great that most people would never attempt it. And those that did faced greater scrutiny than necessary upon their return. So I am being discouraged, by the government, from ever leaving the country. Even when my "papers" are in order.

Would YOU want to leave the country if you knew it was going to be harder to come home than it had been to leave? And mind you, I had not been to a country run by the drug cartels. I had not been to the middle east, to a communist adversary, or to a third world nation. I had been to a stable european democracy with a long history as both a global power and as a friend of the United States, where I vacationed in the countryside for a month with my family.

That passport expires this year, and I am probably going to renew it to just to have it. Why? Because when legal ID consists of a drivers license, and when states are required by presidential decree to issue drivers licenses to people who are known to be here illegally, then how long can it be before state-issued IDs are no longer considered legally valid, and some kind of national identity document is required to prove identity and legal citizenship inside the country?

So my own experience teaches me that being born as an American Citizen, with government issued proof of that citizenship in my possession, is no guarantee that the government will believe that a citizen still has any citizenship rights. In fact, it teaches me that the American government thinks that its own documents are worthless, and that all of its citizens are suspicious.

So yeah, when I drive through a BP checkpoint (or pass through the ICE/INS booth at an airport), I answer the question cheerfully and try to grin and bear it and get moving again as soon as possible; because I know from personal experience that if I allow myself to be maneuvered into having to PROVE my citizenship, the federal government won't even believe its own documents.
by The Annoyed Man
Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:16 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Present CHL to Border Patrol?
Replies: 75
Views: 15559

Re: Present CHL to Border Patrol?

fickman wrote:
HadEmAll wrote:Would YOU have presented your CHL along with other Identification, if asked by a Federal, not state or local law enforcement officer, such as this Border Patrol officer?
No.

I'll join the ranks of those who, when not engaged in crossing a border, would not provide any information to a border patrol officer. Not even an answer to the citizenship question. I would do so with the greatest amount of courtesy, respect, politeness, and resolve.
With all due respect, easier said than done sometimes. Put yourself in my shoes above. That happened at DFW, hundreds of miles from the nearest border. Would you be so obstinate then?
by The Annoyed Man
Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:09 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Present CHL to Border Patrol?
Replies: 75
Views: 15559

Re: Present CHL to Border Patrol?

Abraham wrote:If a citizen decided to remain mum when asked about citizenship by a BP agent, what would be the consequences?

Arrest?

It would be interesting to see what the charges would be.

Waved on after a brief bit of silence?

BP calling local police to do something or other...?

Anyone know?
See dadtodabone's experience http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=68698" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
by The Annoyed Man
Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:31 am
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Present CHL to Border Patrol?
Replies: 75
Views: 15559

Re: Present CHL to Border Patrol?

Dadtodabone wrote:Such was my experience.
http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=68698
Just read your post.....entertainingly written, by the way. One of your respondents described your wife's character in response to that situation as "spirited". I agree. And please understand I am not dumping on her because she indeed sounds "fetching", as you described her.........BUT......."spirited" is not always "wise". Whenever I am personally tempted to get loud and proud in the face of authority, I remind myself of that Biblical injunction to be "quiet as doves, and wise as serpents". Loud and proud often creates more problems than it solves.....even if it is justifiable on some level. My guess is that her spiritedness is part of what you love about your wife. My ex-wife was spirited that way, and it was part of why I loved her; but that spiritedness caused me some headaches along the way that I would have been better off without, even if she thought she was doing it on our (or my) behalf. There was one time where she confronted my boss—at my work, in my presence, and without warning me that she was going to do it—about how poorly she thought I was being paid and how under-appreciated I was for what I did, and that a decent man would not have allowed that injustice to continue. I wanted to hide in the wastebasket. In the basement. Of the building next door. She was right on some level, but she also permanently poisoned my work atmosphere; and it wasn't long before I was transferred into another department............same job, same pay grade, worse boss.

She got to voice her considerable opinion, but it made things worse, not better.

Every single time I have an interaction with law enforcement (or anyone else for that matter in which the encounter is semi-adversarial), I ask myself, "is this the hill I want to die on today?".........and I have had MUCH worse happen than a simple "are you an American citizen" asked by a federal officer. I once patiently endured a nearly-literal 3rd degree interrogation by INS agents at DFW for about 40 minutes, nearly missing my connecting flight to Burbank, on my way home from France. I was separated from my terrified family and whisked off to an interrogation room........all because I was traveling on a newly issued passport post-9/11, and have the misfortune of having been born in Morocco. The passport was newly issued because my previous passport was issued when I was 18 years old, and my mother had lost it, and I had not required one since then until we started planning that trip. The experience is enough for a separate thread, so I won't bother with the details, but the fact remains that my "papers" were all in order, I had valid ID, I had no contraband, I had violated no laws, and I had been nothing but respectful and cooperative right up until the very end. At the end, I finally tired of the game of being asked the same questions over and over again, rephrased each time, and answering them consistently, and I told the interrogating officer that my patience was running thin, my family was worried about me, we were about to miss our connecting flight, and that he was either going to have to arrest me or let me go.......and did I need to phone a lawyer? He had nothing to arrest me for, and he had to let me go. Sometimes the word "lawyer" has magical powers.

But I put up with that crap for 45 minutes because they had ALL the power, ALL the authority, and ALL the guns from which government authority flows, to detain me for as long as THEY wanted to. That was NOT the hill I wanted to die on that day, as there were much larger practical considerations, like a terrified family and a plane that wasn't going to wait for me. Were my 4th Amendment rights violated? Yes, to some extent they were. Was I happy about it? No, I was not. Am I still a little PO'd today about having been treated that way 10 years ago? Yes, a little bit. Did it contribute to the contempt I have today for all things federal? Very much so. BUT...... it taught me one thing, and that is that a simple answer of "Yes" to the question "are you an American Citizen" is a LOT easier than getting dragged off to some back room for a session of quality face-to-face time with a federal official whose goal it is to try and trip me up on my answers so that he can find a reason to put me behind bars.......because he doesn't like the cut of my jib.

There's a lot of loose talk from people who have never had to actually confront the consequences about what they might do or say if their papers are demanded of them, or advise others to do or say in any such confrontation with federal law enforcement. But until they have had to answer 45 minutes worth of pointless questions from a hostile armed federal official with bright lights shining in their eyes in a back room deep in the bowels of the INS offices at an international border entry point, separated from their worried family and about to miss a connecting flight, I most heartedly invite them to shut the heck up, because they don't know what they are talking about.

Pride goeth before the fall, but "yes" gets you home on time.

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