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snatchel wrote:Alright, I'm convinced.

I wouldn't call it ..... un-American to wave the Mexican and American flag... but I can now say in good conscience that I believe it was not in good taste.

"Not in good taste" would about cover it.

snatchel wrote:Touche, TAM.

I understand exactly where your coming from.

Here is where I compare this to:

If I were an Olympic athlete..... competing as a US citizen, and were to win a gold medal, you know what I would do? I would run around like a mad-man with the American flag. You can also bet your bottom that I'd be running around with a Texas flag too.

When I was in the military, I would wear a TX flag patch rather than a US flag. I got a whole lotta grief about it from others, particularly non-Texans. They never went so far as to call it un-American, but they did say that I should be representing the United States, not my state. I'm infinitely proud of my heritage as a Texan. It's a lifestyle and a privilege. In the end, i'm American.... but I'm a Texan first. I always thought that the uniform I was wearing was proof enough of my loyalty.

I'm not sure if y'all can see the parallel I am drawing from this, but I'm not sure I can put it into better words.

YMMV

Snatchel, I hear you, but I would add one salient fact. Last I checked, Texas is part of the USA. Mexico is not. If some swabbie from ConnectTheDots or Commiefornia is jealous of your Texas heritage, too bad for him.

If you had been wearing a patch bearing the state flag of Sinaloa or Oaxaca, that would have been kind of offensive. And that is a closer parallel to what this kid did. He may not have meant anything by it, but that doesn't change the fact that our actions and words have consequences, sometimes out of proportion to what we're able to see at any given moment. My guess is that if he had reflected on it before he did it, he might have chosen discretion and not waved the Mexican flag. This is why, although there is nothing wrong with spontaneous good fun as long as nobody gets hurt, there are some things in life that are so momentous that they should cause us to pause and reflect a moment before we take the next step—whatever that is. Winning a medal at the Olympics is one of those moments in life that is that momentous. If this young man's gaff is the result of not taking such a pause, that would be a sign of immaturity. If he did take such a pause, and he still decided that celebrating with a foreign flag was the right thing to do, then I question his commitment to the nation that succored him.

The thing is service to the nation, and being an olympian are two very different things, even thought they both require commitment. An olympian does not make a covenant with the nation that sends him to give up his life if that is what is necessary. An olympian will know hard work to get there, but he will be celebrated, wined and dined, interviewed by the press, and made into a media darling. A soldier/sailor/marine/airman/coastie will give up long sleepless nights on watch, face many dangers, go to bed dirty and tired and not get enough sleep, hold a buddy's head and hands as he bleeds out, curse the service that sent him away, and kiss the ground when he returns home......on about half the pay that most of us make. The wife who sends her husband off to war may never see him again. The child who hugs her daddy when he leaves may grow up never having really known him. And all of that, ALL of it, is for what? It is for the chance be able to hold your head up and know that you did your duty. It's for the love of your country. Maybe it's for the fun if you're a risk-taker, but it stops being fun when people die for real.

Olympians are but a pale reflection of that kind of glory. I give them their due, and they earned it by being willing to put in the work to get there. But, not everybody can be that, and not just because they're not willing. On the best day I ever had, I could have never been a world-class runner. I've never been built for it. Even when I was in superb condition, I was slow. So being an olympian is also about being in an elite group of people. I don't know the total number of athletes from all nations that competed this year, but I think an estimate of 2,000-3,000 is probably reasonable. But even if it is double or triple that, the world population is about 6.5 billion, so it is a tiny tiny fraction of the best of the best of the best who make it to the Olympics.

But to join our military—and I say this with with the utmost respect—you don't have to be exceptional.....except in the desire to serve, which is a rare enough trait. The military will take someone of average to maybe above-average physical condition (not olympians), and average to above-average intelligence and then shape that person into whatever the service needs them to be—teaching them along the way the skills they need to be a leader, to be dependable, to be skilled in their MOS...all of that. In other words, the military is something that is available to most of us (at the right age). The Olympics is not. The military is the "great equalizer." The Olympics is not. The military is an engine for opportunity for anybody who is motivated to take advantage of it. The Olympics is not. And when the person in the military musters out and returns to civilian life, unless they were born rich they will struggle financiall just like every other average American struggles. The olympian, OTH, will parlay their medals and fame into million dollar product endorsements and have their face on a Wheaties box.....so they are two very different worlds.

So it is indeed a very rare privilege to represent your country at an Olympics. In that light, wave your country's flag, not some other country's flag.

YMMV as well.

I'm not offended by his exuberance. I'm not offended by whether or not he is a 1st, 2nd, or 20th generation immigrant. I am not offended by his family's particular nation of origin, regardless of which country it is. And as I have previously stated, I am not offended by either an immigrant or a native born son/daughter celebrating their particular ethnic heritage. Without such "celebrations," we would not be enjoying Mexican Food, Bollywood movies, Carribian rhythms, or Gospel music. None of it. And kudos to this young man, by the way for his accomplishments.

But when you go to the Olympics, as part of the U.S. Olympic Team, funded by the USA, trained by the USA, and supported in a foreign land by the USA, then you do so under the flag of the USA, representing the citizens of the USA, whose flag is Old Glory.

I bear the Mexican Olympic team no ill will, and I think that the olympic ideal, that of nations able to put aside whatever differences they have for two weeks in the summer every four years to celebrate sport at its highest accomplishment is a noble one.

But their athletes compete under the Mexican flag......which is exactly as it should be. Ours compete under the American flag.......which is exactly as it should be. When an athlete of any nation accepts the help from his country that it takes to get to the Olympics to represent his country, let there be no confusion about whom he represents. It is about gratitude to the nation that got you there. Mexico did not get this young man to the Olympics. He went there representing all of us....here in the USA.

Truthfully, I'm not that personally upset by it, simply because in the large scheme of things, one individual's protocol gaff is pretty small potatos. But that said, it does cause me to ask, where do his loyalties lie? With the nation that made this life he has possbile, or with the nation he and his family left because it was too corrupt and bankrupt in the middle of such bountiful resources to provide for its own citizens? And if it lies with that country, then how on earth can one celebrate it by waving that country's flag? And if it lies with the USA, then why wave that country's flag at all?

And, I guess that this squabble means we have to stop using "African-American," "Mexican-American," "Italian-American," "Native-American," and "Anglo-American"—all terms denoting some racial/ethnic subset of citizens of the U.S.—because we wouldn't want to offend anyone who is not "American."

karl wrote:I like Usain Bolt like everyone else, but more United Statesian than a United Statesian? I dunno if that's actually possible. A lot of Hispanic immigrants bring their respect for their home country to the US. That's cool. But at the games? A little out of place methinks.

The Annoyed Man wrote: Seriously Jim, people have been using the term "American" to denote a citizen of the United States of America for at least a century......including liberals. In the context you're using, it would be like using "European" to describe a French citizen, but nobody else uses "American" in that context. It's not cultural chauvinism or jingoistic nationalism. It's just common usage. Nothing more.

Have you run that opinion by other countries in the Americas?

How extensively have you traveled? I've travelled and lived abroad some.

In Paris, when I met an english speaking guy once, I asked him, "American?" He answered, "No, Canadian." I have asked spanish speakers in Europe if they were Spanish, and been told "No, Venezuelan. You?" I answered "American," and they understood and were not offended. I have been asked in french, "D'ou estes vous?" and I answered, "je suis Américain," and the other person understood perfectly well that this meant that "Je suis un citoyen des Estas Unis." This thread is the very first time in my life that I've ever seen someone get offended by that usage, and I honestly think that it amounts to making mountains out of molehills.

So yes, I have vetted the term in actual use, and have done it over decades. You may have been offended by it, but in my 60 years, including large parts of it living overseas, I've never heard or seen anyone use the term in any other way than the same one I've used it in, and I have never seen anyone understand it any differently than I understood it.....or get offended by it.

Like I said, it's not cultural chauvinism or jingoistic fervor, it's simply common usage.....just as 57coastie acknowledged above, and it certainly isn't anything worth getting all worked up over. I'm actually a little surprised that you persist in that line of reasoning.

To each his own, I suppose. I'm not going to change a lifetime of speaking the way I speak just to suit you, when everybody else I've ever met, including another friend's Argentinian wife, knows perfectly well what I meant, and it wouldn't even have occured to her to misunderstand or be offended. If you don't want to understand what I mean, then that's on you, because I don't know how I could be any more clear. Have a nice and peaceful afternoon.

Edited to add the following:
I have no opinion on Bolt, except to acknowledge that he can run faster than me. A LOT faster. I am appreciative that he was respectful during the playing of our national anthem, but I would hope that, as an olympian, he would be equally respectful when some other country's anthem was being played. It's the right thing to do, so in that context, Bolt did the right thing. But I don't think that makes him any more or less American than anyone else. Now, as to the other guy.....I'd ask him, who did you compete for, the U.S. team or the Mexican team? Make up your mind, because they only count you once. It is perfectly OK to be proud of your cultural heritage if your family comes from another country, but waving a flag is a sign of national allegiance, and he was waving a Mexican flag. Under which flag does his heart reside? When you go to the olympics as a member of the U.S. Olympic Team, those are Americans (my usage) who are paying your way there. Mexico did not pay for your training. Mexico did not pay for your coaching. Mexico did not pay for your airfare to the Olympics. And Mexico did not pay for your support 8,000 miles from home. Mexico will not be paying for your airfare home. When you get there, it was your effort that got you there, but you go there representing the nation that nourished your ambition and paid to get you there, as a member of that nation's Olympic team. Show the people who got you there a little respect. Don't wave some other country's flag at them, some country which had nothing at all to do with fulfilling your personal ambitions, because....contrary to popular belief some times....it isn't always all about you. If you can't do that, then I am no longer interested in your personal success. When you offend enough people who got you there this time, then maybe they won't be so willing to send you the next time, because you don't represent us.....ALL of us, not just your little cultural corner of the United States of America.

So that's how I feel about that.

57Coastie wrote:

apostate wrote:I don't think either is American....

Leo Manzano is not an American? Is a Mexican not an American? Is a Canadian not an American? How about a Chilean? Is a naturalized U. S. citizen not an American? What is an American?

The greatest country in the world is almost alone in not having a one-word noun to describe a citizen (or "native" if you will). We "United States Americans" have taken over the continent, North, Central and South, I suppose.

Jim

Seriously Jim, people have been using the term "American" to denote a citizen of the United States of America for at least a century......including liberals. In the context you're using, it would be like using "European" to describe a French citizen, but nobody else uses "American" in that context. It's not cultural chauvinism or jingoistic nationalism. It's just common usage. Nothing more.