TexasCHLforum.com

QCRangeMaster wrote:Annoyed man
I hope you understand that I am not trying to change your mind about you patronizing QCSR. I obviously cannot do that. I understand that you will not come back. However, in answering your complaint. Thank you for being more specific in your description of the incidents in question. As I thought they occurred quite some time ago and both of the employees are no longer employed at QCSR. In fact I only know of one employee who possibly was working at the range in 2008 and he is not an RSO. That should lay this issue to rest.
As far as the “ reputation suggestions” you mentioned,
1. Put the range under new ownership.
The range is private property and owned by private individuals. I can only assure you that the present owners are trying to “move Quail Creek forward” and provide a safe pleasant place to shoot. I believe in them and support them. QRM, I do get it that it is private property. I just didn't know if the same owners who owned it back then still own it today. As I recall, it was an old man. He may have just been tired of being in business. All I know was that he did not have effective control over his employees, and those employees were killing his business. I am self-employed, so I am acutely sensitive to what bad employees can do to a small business. A shooting range may be a place for enthusiasts to hang out, but at the end of the day, it is still a business. QC was badly run. I'll take your word for it that it has improved.
2. Fire anybody employed in 2008.
We don’t need to “fire anybody” because they are already gone. All of our current RSO are NRA certified RSOs. Glad to hear it.
3. Tell employees not to humiliate customers.
This is being done at this time. Our employees are reminded that they are expected to act in a professional manner when dealing with the public. One note: As you stated, you are a paying customer and we realize that fact, however some customers (not necessarily you) believe that by paying a range fee they “own” the range and the RSOs should not confront them. This will never be the case. Just like at any other shooting facility, customers must abide by QCSR rules or expect to be confronted by the RSOs. Good. And for the record, I never once challenged your rules or the RSOs. There is no percentage in challenging the authority of an RSO, even if he is very much in the wrong. So I get that part too.....and that is why the whole experience was so shocking to me.
4. Require RSOs to attend a CHL class.
All QCSR RSOs are Texas CHL holders in good standing and are trained in conflict resolution. Good.
5. Insist in professionalism.
This is already being done. However, I will make the drive to Elm Fork and observe the RSOs there. If anything can be gained from the experience I will take steps to make it happen.
6. Educate the RSOs about the law.
The issue you mentioned was apparently quite some time ago also so I needn’t discuss it further. We welcome concealed carry patrons. Almost daily I allow CHL holders to un-holster their firearm and fire from the shooting bench then re-holster when they leave. We simply require that “concealed means concealed” while on the range. While we cannot allow drawing and firing, we only say anything if someone is open carrying their firearm or drawing to fire. Only Police officers are allowed to open carry with a clearly visible badge. Police officers are only allowed to draw and fire on the police range.
7. Allow FMJ ammunition.
This cannot be changed at this time. Perhaps you are uninformed of the current requirements of our insurance provider to allow FMJ ammunition on an outdoor range. These requirements have nothing to do with the berm or how the targets hang. Our insurance prohibits FMJ ammunition. End of argument. I cannot comment on what Elm Fork does with its ranges. I understand about the insurance, and I suspected as much. But that said, one can either change carriers, or one can try and get the current carrier's blessings on a project like Elm Fork's if it is properly presented. Either way, you are the customer, and you have some pull with your carrier. If your current carrier will not even entertain the possibility of restructuring part of your coverage at the end of your coverage year, PLEASE contact me. I can think of at least 2 or 3 providers of property and casualty insurance who would be more than happy to try and address your needs. NOTHING is written in stone. If your carrier thinks that it is, then they lack the flexibility to do a good job for you, and you can and should change carriers.

1. My son and I took a friend of his from school there to teach him how to shoot a centerfire rifle. I brought along three bolt rifles in .308, and I had a range bag that contained an assortment of different loads of ammo—including the offending FMJs. I had overheard a conversation—possibly between the RO and a customer, or maybe between two customers, I wasn't really paying attention to who was talking—about FMJ not being permitted on the range (I confess that I had not noticed the sign on the wall in the office). I thought "Hmmmmm, I better find out if this ammo is acceptable or not," and I picked up the boxes of FMJ out of my range bag, which was on the ground, and started to turn toward the RO to ask him, when he came rushing up to me like nothing so much as a Marine DI, got all up in my face with his voice raised at me, snatched the boxes of ammo out of my hands, and marched off to his Mule which was parked 10 yards or so behind the firing benches, tossing my ammo boxes in the back of the Mule.
   
   I stood there in shock. I never had a chance to get a word in edgewise. I am a grown man, and was—at the time—in my mid-50s. I've never been spoken to that way by another adult who wasn't either drunk or crazy or both...........or a democrat.......and he did this to me in front of my then teenaged son and his friend. That is absolutely UNACCEPTABLE!!! You should NEVER cut a man's legs out from under him in front of his son or daughter. NEVER. Your man is a complete jackass. I kind of stood there in shock for a minute, not knowing what I should do. I was afraid to talk to the guy because I thought he might punch me out or eject me from the range. THAT's how offensive his behavior was. Sir, enough people on this forum know me personally, face to face, to affirm that I am neither a violent nor hard to get along with person. I am about the most easy going guy you'll ever meet. Finally, I screwed up my courage enough to approach him and ask if I could remove the offending ammo from the back of his Mule and put it in my car. By then, whatever binge he was on had calmed down, and he allowed me to do that. I took the ammo back to my car and put it away, then I went in the range office and bought two more boxes of vastly overpriced ammo so my son's friend could shoot. Then I went back to the shooting tables and began to shoot.
2. The second incident was in the same year, 2008, and involved a different RO. Here's what happened.... I came to the range with a heavy barreled Remington 700 in .308 cased up in a heavy SKS double rifle case on about a 98º day. I always transport the rifle with the bolt removed. I approached the firing line to ask what lane I should take, and the RO indicated an open lane and told me to use that one. I approached the shooting table for that lane, heaved the heavy rifle case up onto the tabletop and—momentarily—set the rifle case down crosswise on the table. before I could reorient the case to point down range and open it, the RO rushed up to me and started chewing me out.....again, like I was some kind of newbie recruit at the rifle range for the first time in boot camp. I have some choice words for the character of your ROs, but forum rules prevent me from using such language here. He made me pick up the rifle case, told me to follow him, and marched me out into that open unshaded dirt patch about 10 yards or so behind the firing line. He told me to set my rifle case on the ground, out there in the hot sun, inline with downrange, and take the rifle out of it there and walk it forward to the firing line. HERE'S HOW STUPID YOUR MAN IS: NOW my rifle is pointed at the unprotected backs of the other shooters, and until he can see that I already have the bolt removed from the action, HE HAS NO CLUE IF IT'S EVEN LOADED OR NOT!!!! What an idiot. To add insult to injury, he would not allow me to subsequently bring my now empty rifle case forward and set it in the shade. I had to leave it laying out there in the hot sun for the 2 hours or so that I was there to shoot. I live in Grapevine, right on the border with Colleyville and Euless, and your range is far enough away that I'm not going to just up and leave after I've already made the drive out there. But when I left there that day, I was SO disgusted with the quality of your employees and the way the range was run that I vowed that I would NEVER come back. Only a fool would return to face that kind of abuse for a third time, and I am no fool.

1. Put the range under new ownership. Whomever was blind enough to allow these two idiots to be the face of your business, in the face of all the complaints online about their rudeness, is out of touch incompetent to run that business.
2. Barring number 1, fire anybody who was employed there in 2008. Mine is far from the only bad experience they produced. THEY are the ones killing your business, not the permanently pissed-off ex-customers they drove away. I don't care if they're NRA certified or not, they're not qualified to deal with the public.
3. Tell your remaining employees that public humiliation in front of a man's children is NOT acceptable under ANY circumstances. I am not the only one on this forum who had that particular experience at your range. Your range, your rules, but remember that I am a PAYING customer, and nobody in their right mind will pay for public humiliation in front of his kids.
4. REQUIRE them to attend a CHL class just for the conflict resolution part. In both of my experiences, your boys took a situation that could have been easily resolved with a few quiet words, and escalated it into a confrontation with an armed man (me) whom they had no idea was armed. That's just plain DUMB.
5. INSIST on professionalism from your crew. I shoot frequently at Elm Fork....in fact I was just there on Sunday. I have had an RO there step up to me and quietly confirm that my firearm was unloaded and safed, or to remind me to stay behind the red line during cease-fires, etc. And you know what? I appreciate the direction, because I am fully aware that I am not a perfect human being. If another pair of eyes makes my shooting experience safer, I'm for it. The thing that marks them, generally speaking, is outstanding professionalism and customer service. You want to know the results of that? I now have very cordial relationships with the people there. I kid around with them. We get along. I respect their authority. THEY EARNED MY RESPECT. Those two neanderthals who abused my better nature have earned my permanent disregard.
6. EDUCATE them about the law. I recall at least one member here who asked one of your ROs if he could discreetly unholster his concealed pistol on the handgun range so that he could shoot with it. He got screamed at about how it was allegedly against the law for him to have a concealed weapon at a shooting range (false).
7. FMJ ammunition: You seriously need to take steps to accommodate FMJ rifle ammo. Elm Fork is a good model of how to do that. If you haven't already, you should go on over there and see what they've done with their 50 yard range. As you must well know, the AR15 platform is the single highest selling rifle platform in the nation. AKs are also selling like hotcakes, as are all other AR/AK variants. You need to serve that market, and people are NOT going to go buy expensive hunting ammo to zero a carbine they are going to use for a Something Arises gun. Elm Fork's 50 yard range is on a poured concrete slab, has overhead baffles to keep the shots low, and the target frames are backed by a tall, framed-in earthen berm. You can choose to shoot at either 25 or 50 yards, and they require the targets at the 50 yard to be mounted even with the bottom edge of the hanging cardboard backer so that all rounds will impact lower in the berm. Is it a major expense to build a feature like this? Yes it is, but it is ALSO an investment in the long term future your range, because this particular market segment is only going to grow larger, not smaller. If you don't serve it, those shooters are not going to give up shooting. They're going to take their shooting business to the facility that can serve all of their shooting needs. I understand why you cannot accept FMJ on the 100 yard rifle line, and Elm Fork doesn't accept it on their 100 yard line for the same reason. But they have made the intelligent (and profitable) decision to accommodate this market, and it is paying off for them.

QCRangeMaster wrote:The issue with pre-loaded magazines is that our insurance prohibits FMJ ammunition being used on our range. Using FMJs opens the entire range to liability that could cause the range to close down permenently. FMJ center fire RIFLE ammo only, not pistol ammo, is prohibited from even being present on the range. Any time the RSOs find it they instruct the shooter to return it to their vehicle prior to shooting. We NEVER confiscate or take possession of anyone's personal property (ammo) even when asked to do so by the shooter themselves! NEVER! Since a few shooters believe that by loading a couple of SP or HP ammo on top of a stack of FMJ will fool the RSOs, we have to check everyone's magazines. There are no less than four signs between where you pay your range fee and the shooting range stating that FMJ, tracers, etc. are not allowed. We have hundreds if not thousands of shooters that come to the range and follow the rules and they are not bothered one bit by the RSOs asking to see their ammunition. The range store maintains a stock of the most common calibers of rifle ammunition so people can get what they need if they should have prohibited ammunition after they arrive. If shooters elect not to purchase ammo from our store, that they can ether get a full refund or go somewhere else and buy ammo then return to shoot. The range fee is good for the whole day. We do not mind you leaving and returning.

In closing I would like to say "If you haven't been to Quail Creek in the last two years, you haven't been to Quail Creek"! The range is nothing like it used to be! While I can do nothing to correct something that may have happened five or ten years ago, the owners (and I) are determined to provide a safe, enjoyable place for people to shoot. The fact that whole families come out and spend an enjoyable day with us tells me that we are succeeding. If there are any issues please see me and I will address them.
QCRM

olafpfj wrote:TAM, I still find it a bit ironic that the BEST range that I have ever shot at is Angeles Crest in...wait for it...Kalifornia!!!!
For those not in the know you could shoot pistol (they have an incredible silhouette gallery), rifle from 100-700 yds with steel at 200-700 permanently there, and 4 trap stands...all for $4 on Thursdays so long as the LA county SWAT team didn't use their standing 1pm range time (they never did for the 2 years I shot there regularly). It was heaven and I miss it...