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mrvmax wrote:Check out the Rock Island Armory 22TCP as a cheaper alternative in a 1911 platform (with an extra barrel in 9 mm.)

Is the noise from that round called a "TCP Report?"

speedsix wrote:...would the 5.7 round remain stable or would it tend to tumble and bounce around in the body, creating more punctures? I haven't read any detailed accounts of why it is so effective at stopping humans....but at those high speeds, hydrostatic shock injury could be a part of it...has anyone here seen autopsy results to see how they work inside the body?

I can't cite sources at the moment, but my recollection from other reading is that the 5.7 bullet behaves much like the 5.5/.223 bullet in that it yaws tremendously upon striking the target and then tumbles around in the same way such that any exit wounds might not be located along the same line of trajectory as if it were say a much heavier 168 grain .308.

For the record, I'm not debating whether or not the 5.7 is an effective SD caliber. I'm convinced that it IS. The point I was trying to make in my previous posts is that there is evidence to suggest that in actual application, it may not be much more effective than a .22WMR. The reason for making that point is to demonstrate that there exists a viable alternative for someone who either cannot afford a FN Five Seven, or who might be concerned about the easy availability of ammunition. And, as I pointed out, I would personally probably buy the PMR first over the FN, at this point in time, for exactly those reasons. None of that means that I wouldn't like to have an FN Five Seven in my safe some day, and previous posts of mine in past threads about this gun support that notion. Back then, the PMR-30 had not yet entered the marketplace. The fact that it now has done so changes the dynamics a bit for someone who is on the market for this class of pistol. I seek merely to point that out. Vive la difference.

LowGrainHighPain wrote:The author of the article you mentioned is either high, incompetent, or both.

{snip}....

Penetration and cavitation were nearly identical? Was this author dropped on his head shortly after being born?

Geeze, you don't have to be insulting about it. Nice way to start off your career here. Are you familiar with Gun-Tests Magazine? Here is what the article said about the comparative performance of the 5.7 cartridge compared to the WMR cartridge, both fired into Balllistic Technology's Handgun Bullet Test Tubes:

Looking at those energy differences would suggest better terminal performance for the 5.7, but our tests of the two in a channel-forming media suggest otherwise. We used several tubes of Ballistic Technology’s wax-like, easy-to-use Handgun Bullet Test Tubes (#100-002-900, $28) to take the guesswork out of determining terminal bullet performance. We were able to accurately measure penetration, retained bullet weight, expansion, and wound-cavity size for the two rounds and found the magnum more than holds its own with the 5.7. At close range we fired one 5.7 round into the 11-inch-long, 3.5-inch-wide Handgun Test Tube. It carved out a 60-ml channel (total water volume) up to 1.2 inches wide, but didn’t exit the tube. A second 5.7 opened a 75-ml channel, and also didn’t exit the tube. For the 22 WMR, we first tried one tube, since it was "only" a 22 Mag. The Bullet Test Tube states that one tube is sufficient for 9mm through 45 ACP cartridges, and two tubes should be used for magnum loads. The Remington PSP had enough energy to punch a quarter-inch-wide and half-inch-long hole through the metal end of the tube, exiting an entire tube length. So we reshot it with two tubes. The round punched 4 inches deep into the second tube (15 inches overall penetration) and created a 60-ml wound channel. The Super-X didn’t exit the first tube (the mushroomed bullet stuck inside the tube cap) and created a 66-ml channel. The Dynapoint traveled 14 inches into the media and chewed out a 50-ml channel.

So, Yeah, if "dropped on his head" means that he went out and methodically tested both cartridges in a purpose made ballistic medium created specifically to test handgun bullets and then factually and without bias reported the results, then yeah, he was dropped on his head.

Possibly though, he actually might have known what he was talking about. One thing about Gun-Tests: they accept NO advertising, zero, zip, nada, from any of the manufacturers whose products they test. They actually go out and buy all the products, guns and ammo included, from retailers at retail prices. In other words, they don't have a dog in the hunt. Furthermore, they didn't knock the FN pistol. They actually said that they liked it a lot. They just liked the PMR-30 better. You can take that or leave it. Either is fine with me. I would agree that, generally speaking, Kel-Tec guns are somewhat minimalist, which is why they cost so much less than other guns, but they tend to function just fine and offer a good gun for a cheap price. I'm not a fan of the brand per se, but honestly, I'd probably buy a PMR-30 over the FN, based on the price differential. Also, I'm not relying on a pistol like that for SD. I'm not saying it doesn't have its use in that regard, but I already have a regular rotation of good quality pistols in solid traditional SD pistol calibers. If I needed a rifle caliber in 30 round magazines, I'd throw an AR carbine in the back of the car......which I do sometimes anyway.

carlson1 wrote:I am not for sure how good they are for cc. They do look interesting. Shot one at Bass Pro hat belonged to someone else.

There is a lot of reading out thers on the Five Seven. Positive and negative.

Gun-Tests magazine did a comparison between the FN5.7 and the Keltech PMR30, and they decided that they liked the PMR30 better by a narrow margin......cheaper price for the gun, cheaper ammo, better ammo availability.

http://www.gun-tests.com/issues/23_11/f ... 913-1.html

Our Team Said: Shooting the 5.7 is fun. Thanks to the excellent trigger, light recoil, mild muzzle flip, and capacious magazine, we blistered targets at a rapid rate. Lock into it and the slide pistons back and forth as empties fly out. When the magazine runs dry, slap another one home, hit the slide release, and keep going. Practical accuracy is excellent, and man-sized targets are easy to hit. But these same traits appear in the PMR-30 for half the price.

............................

Our Team Said: We originally thought that the Kel-Tec PMR-30 might be considered a poor man’s 5.7, but now we think the KT is the better gun overall. That it’s one-third to one-half the price and ammo is one-third to one-half the price as well makes this an easy call. We hope to see a shorter barrel and shorter grip version of the PMR-30 soon.

When they tested both cartridges in a ballistic media, actual penetration and cavitation size were nearly identical between the 5.7x28 fired from the FN pistol and the .22WMR fired from the Kel-Tec pistol.

Something to think about.....

One of the members from El Paso (Karder?) has a FN57 for daily carry.