TexasCHLforum.com

anygunanywhere wrote:I have invited packers to my house. Packers freely come and go at my invite, some just drop in. I never ask them to disarm. Why would I? I have stated that I welcome them and respect their RKBA.

And I have previously stated that I have also invited packers into my home. They are my friends, and I trust them, and I have never asked a single one of them to disarm. At no time have I stated that I have done so. You must have missed some of my previous posts.

My issue is with people that I don't know. It is simple really. If I don't know you, and you are in my house, and you are armed, I want to know that you are armed. That way, I can make sure that I am prepared to counter you in case you turn out to be hinkey. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't want people whom I don't know for a certain fact to be upstanding citizens to be carrying firearms into my home, AND I want to have that with the luxury of not having to carry myself all the time inside my home in order to enforce it.

Now, it has been suggested to me here that this is perhaps an unrealistic expectation. But surely you can understand how, if I don't know you, or know anything about you, I can have no way of making any judgment for myself about whether or not I would want you armed inside my home? Lots of people carry illegally. So if the electrician or HVAC guy I call to come fix something at my house is packing when he arrives, I have no way of knowing whether he is a guy like you who is qualified and has proven his fitness for the license, or if he is a guy with a past history of rape or home invasion robbery, do I?

That leaves me with no other alternative but to be packing heat myself each time a stranger comes to the door, since I can apparently have no reasonable expectation that a stranger would offer me that information. The thought of it irks me.

anygunanywhere wrote:I really do not understand why people are so offended by firearms. I guess it is because most sheep are brought up to be easily offended. Last time I read the constitution there was not anything in there that said you had the right to not be offended.

Anygun

Anygun,

1) I am not offended by firearms. I have a collection of my own, and I encourage you to build your own. I encourage all citizens to exercise their RKBA. Your comments in that regard, and those of others, if directed at me, are mis-directed. That was not my point at all. My point was simply that, if someone is inside the walls of my house, I have an inherent right to know if they are armed or not. Obviously, you and others disagree, but that still does not equate to my being offended by firearms, and arguments attempting to paint it that way are specious at best.

2) If your "sheep" comment was directed at me, then take it and put it where the sun doesn't shine. It is idiotic to think I am a "sheep" because I want to protect the inside of my home from potential wolves. It makes no sense at all. You want to call me names, now that is offensive. But since you don't think I ought to be offended by that, then I'm sure you won't be offended if I tell you "up yours, pal."

Of all of the people who posted in opposition to my points here, the only two who said anything constructive about my objection were Lucky45 and tbranch. I most appreciated Lucky45's comment when he said:

But now I think we are getting down to the crux of your issue. I think you wish that everyone would be forthcoming and reveal their status, so that you won't have to build up the courage to question everyone entering your home for your piece of mind. You mentioned that you will soon be recieving a CHL and one thing that most people do and should hold dear is their concealment status. So that is wishful thinking to hope that strangers either tell you they are carrying or Disarm and leave it in the vehicle when approaching your home.
So you need to either deal with it, or do like the lion and build up some courage.

He has addressed my concern with an answer that is neither lecturing or demeaning, and with an instructive reply which has given me food for thought. In the past, I have not been in the habit of carrying inside my own house, not having deemed it necessary. It is apparent from this discussion that, from now on, I will A) have to carry inside my own house if I am to have a reasonable expectation of being safe from those who would choose not to be forthcoming with me; and B) have to get in the habit of asking them outright if I really need to know.

Perhaps once I've actually got my CHL, I'll relax a bit about it. But one thing I will never do is be dismissive of the concerns of others. It's just not in me to be that way.

Lucky45 wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote:Is any of what I'm saying here making any sense to you?

Yes, but this is a COMPLETE opinion, compared to the other vague posts you made earlier. Here you happen to notice that the guy was printing and assumed he had a firearm. THen followed through from there. But how do you handle the other people that you HAVE NOT notice a firearm, due to exceptional concealment??

That's a good question. At least we're communicating now, and I apologize for getting crusty about it earlier. My answer is, "I can't, unless I make it previously known to the CHL holder." On the other hand, I don't want to post an ugly 30.06 sign next to my front door any more than anyone else does. I do care about the exterior of my home. So what other choice do I have but to ask everybody who comes in that I don't know personally if they are carrying? Somehow, it seems wrong to put the onus on the home owner than on the visitor, and that's what I just can't seem to get past.

Also, I apologize for hijacking the thread. I didn't mean to do that.

Look, maybe I haven't expressed this well. Let me try again....

Kalrog and Tom, when you guys carry, you probably do so for a number of reasons, but I'm guessing that the obvious primary reason is that of self-defense. And one very good reason for carrying concealed (besides the legal requirement) is because you never know the intentions of the persons around you. Similarly, you probably also have friends who carry concealed, and each of you knows that the others carry, and you trust one another and feel fortified by knowing that there are additional qualified people around you in case something goes wrong. And how do you know for sure that these friends of yours are "friends of the court" (to borrow a phrase) and qualified? You know it because you have personal knowledge of their holding a CHL which says that they have passed a background check, are stable citizens, and are qualified with their weapons.

A) Are you with me so far?
And
B ) Am I right in my assumptions so far?

If so, now take a look at the flip side...

You've just admitted a person into your home to do some work of some sort. You've never met the guy. You don't know anything about him personally, except that he drove up in the company van to do his thing. He's got shifty eyes or sweaty palms, or some other mannerism that gets your casual attention. This may be nothing more than the facial expressions of a naturally nervous person, or it may be the facial expression of someone whose got something to hide. You don't know yet which it is, but its got your attention. Now the guy stoops over to get a tool out of his toolbox, and you notice that he's printing through the company jacket he's wearing. You suddenly realize that this guy with the shifty nervous expression has just carried a weapon into your home. You've just admitted an armed man in whom you do not have full confidence into your home.

Can you see where I'm coming from now? Like you and your friends who carry, I have no problem with my own friends. I trust my friends implicitly, particularly those who I know are qualified to carry. It's the people who are not my friends whom I do not yet trust, particularly when they are inside of the walls of the one place where I should have the right to feel relatively safe.

Now, if I know that that this worker is a CHL holder, then I can relax a bit, because I know that he has already been examined and qualified to carry. However, there is a catch 22 here. How can he reveal that to me without compromising his concealment? My reaction, on seeing the guy printing, is going to be to ask him outright if he is a CHL holder and asking to see his CHL. He's got two choices, he can answer in the affirmative and show me the license, and I'll let him continue the work; or he can refuse to answer, in which case I will tell him that I'm not comfortable having an armed stranger who has no CHL in my home and will he please go secure his weapon in his vehicle. At that point, it's up to him whether or not he wants to do the work, but if he does, it will be under my terms. Prove to me that he's qualified, or take the gun outside. I realize that I can't legally force him to show me his CHL, but I can legally fire him and deny him continued access to my home if he won't.

Is any of what I'm saying here making any sense to you?

tbranch wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote:I am sorry if that sounds rude to you, but people who think they have rights in my home without my permission are being twice as rude as I am. On the day that you start paying MY mortgage, and MY property taxes; on the day that you assume responsibility for the protection of MY family, THEN you get to have a say in what goes on in MY home. As long as I pay for those things and the deed is in MY name, and the responsibility for protecting my home and its occupants is MY responsibility, then your right to exercise your RKBA without restriction ends at my private property line, unless I invite you to exercise them on my property.

Annoyed,

Wow! I'm not sure what brought this on. Do you carry outside your home? Do you have a CHL? Perhaps not. Paying your mortgage or bills does not factor into it and unless you give proper notice you can't exercise that right. Have you posted a 30.06 sign on your home yet?

I carry all the time and that includes into private homes. If they have a valid 30.06 sign or gave me verbal notice, I would respect their wishes and leave my weapon in my vehicle.

Tom

Tom, Actually, my CHL is still pending the completion of my background check, so no, I don't carry outside of my home except in my vehicle sometimes. That being said, I am disturbed by people who disrespect the private property rights of other private citizens. I'm not talking about public places. I'm talking about private homes. And yes, it does anger me that CHL holders think their rights trump mine inside my own home. Personally, I would not carry into someone's home without their permission, CHL or no CHL. I would consider it rude. And I don't tolerate rudeness from others in my home. And yes, since I pay for it, that gives me the moral right to decide the rules.

Like I said, if someone doesn't like the rules in my home, don't come around. It's my home. If you can't respect that, then you are using your CHL to disrespect me in my own home. It might be lawful for you to do that, but it isn't right, and nothing you or anybody else can say about it is going to change my mind. I don't want people carrying inside my home without my permission for the same reason that you want to remain concealed carry outside my home - that you can't always trust the other guy to have your best interests in heart. When a stranger comes to my door, how do I know that he's got my best interests in heart? Until I know that, I would prefer that he not be armed. Can you see my logic?

Frankly, I am puzzled that others can't see that.

Chris

Kalrog wrote:Logical... up to this.

The Annoyed Man wrote:I would expect common courtesy to dictate that the individual would just automatically leave their weapon in the car unless they had first asked my permission. I trust all of my friends. My friends are all welcome to carry if they feel the need. Strangers have not yet earned my trust, and in that event, I want to be the only one armed.

Common courtesy? To disarm? Heck no! Common courtesy would be don't draw on me - don't do anything to make me think that I need to protect myself from you. Okay. But I don't disarm when going to a stranger's house because they aren't going to know unless the NEED arises, and then I better be armed.

Kalrog, That's fine... ...in your house. In MY house, if you come in armed without my permission and I don't know you well enough to trust you with a gun inside my walls where my wife and children live, and I find out about it, I'm going to eject you by whatever means necessary. It is MY home, and you have no rights there that I don't permit you. End of story. You don't like them rules, don't come around my home. If you are my friend - and a few of my friends do carry - then I have no objections, and I know that their armed presence actually adds to the security of my home. But if I don't know you or anything about you, all bets are off.

I am sorry if that sounds rude to you, but people who think they have rights in my home without my permission are being twice as rude as I am. On the day that you start paying MY mortgage, and MY property taxes; on the day that you assume responsibility for the protection of MY family, THEN you get to have a say in what goes on in MY home. As long as I pay for those things and the deed is in MY name, and the responsibility for protecting my home and its occupants is MY responsibility, then your right to exercise your RKBA without restriction ends at my private property line, unless I invite you to exercise them on my property.

It's not that I think that you personally and specifically, here on this board, are a bad person or irresponsible with a gun, its that I don't know whether or not you are those things when you show up at my door as a total stranger. It is that I am a small time private citizen with a lot of money invested in my (small) private property and house, with a wife and family who reside within its walls for whose safety I am responsible, and NO stranger not acting in his official capacity as an LEO has the moral authority to contravene my rules while physically on my personal private property. We're not talking about public shoppings malls here. We are talking about someone's home. Now, I am a reasonable guy, and if you, the visitor stranger, would take the time to establish a trusting relationship with me and seek to find out how I might feel about the issue, I might well change my mind about you and relax. But if I don't know you well enough to trust you, then you can just leave your gun in the car because my right to prevent armed strangers from entering my home supersedes your right to walk around armed inside my walls.

BTW, I've made it a point to get to know the tradesmen I've hired to provide various services to my home - A/C, electrical, contracting, etc. - and there isn't one of them who ever gave me reason to regret my decision to trust them. I like developing that relationship, because I want to be able to hire them again if I need their services and have been satisfied with their work in the past. Heck, we often wind up talking about guns and hunting, etc. So far, they've all been good old boys. But that being said, I still insist on my right to know if they are armed on my property if I have not yet had the chance to forge that relationship with them.

I have been very pro 2nd amendment and RKBA for a long time now, and I have been very much in favor of legal concealed carry for a long time too, although I lived for a long time in a state where lawful concealed carry was nearly impossible. But I have to say that, ever since I have come into contact with the Texas CHL community, it is absolutely astounding to me how many people who otherwise seem to be good citizens have the arrogance to assume that their RKBA rights trump a home owners rights inside his own home. I guess that makes it OK for me to stand at someone's front door and loudly recite the Communist Manifesto with a megaphone on full volume until my voice fails because my 1st Amendment rights trump the home owner's right to a little peace and quiet inside the walls of his house.

It is a really sad commentary.

Interesting points raised here....

Let me start by saying outright that I hate those signs... but...

To whomever it was who posted that he harkens from the pre-civil rights era where people were denied access due to their race; with all due respect, we are not talking about race here. I remember that time very well also. You have no choice about the color of your skin at birth. You do have a choice about whether or not to go about heeled. The law currently allows restaurant owners to deny entry to people who are not wearing a shirt and shoes if they want to. They are not barring you from entering at all. They are simply acting on their legal right to insist that you be properly attired when you do. And they don't even have to post a 30.06 to do it. At least with a 30.06, you don't have to go home and put some clothes on. You just have to go back to your car and secure your weapon. But in neither case is the restaurant barring you based on something over which you have no choice - the color of your skin.

Regarding the notion that any place that denies you CCW entry assumes responsibility for your safety, it cannot be sustained by the law. Given the fact that the SCOTUS has ruled that even our paid guardians, the police, have no legal duty to protect us, it is going to be very hard to prove liability on the part of a business that posts a lawful 30.06 sign if a shooting should happen inside that business. There are lots of activities in life where people assume risks, and we have no reasonable expectation that the hosts of those activities can be held responsible for what happens to us if something goes wrong - a parking lot accident, for instance. Your decision to park in the mall lot automatically implies that you accept to do so at your own risk. If you cannot accept that risk, then the remedy is to avoid those situations rather than to confront them and expect a different outcome than what the law allows for. So, if you want to carry past a 30.06 sign, be at peace if you get caught, arrested, prosecuted, and lose your CHL. You had a choice, and that you chose "wrong" (meaning "illegal") is not the fault of the place that posted the sign.

That being said, I think the most grating thing about those signs is that the decision to post them is often made at some remote corporate headquarters, often out of state, by corporate counsel attorneys whose job it is to reduce their corporation's liability exposure as much as possible. They work for the corporation, not for us, so they are insulated and unreachable. That they actually increase their corporation's liability by thinking up diabolical ways to disarm their customers makes no difference to them. For the most part, they probably come down on the wrong side of the RKBA debate anyway, so they are not philosophically inclined to be reasonable about it. Besides, here in Texas, the 30.06 sign gives them the loophole to escape that liability. For better of for worse, the state has seen fit to add 30.06 to the code, and that is the reality that we have to live with for the present.

Regarding non-compliant signs on businesses, well, a lot depends on your relationship with the business entity you are entering. Personally, I can't tell the difference between 3/4" and 1" high lettering while walking past it without a ruler. Not being in the trades, I don't happen to carry one. If it looks like a legal 30.06, even if it is technically not, then I am going to respect it - just in case. The fact is that I am usually too busy to waste my time getting up close, squinting, holding my tongue "just so," taking out the ruler, and measuring the letters. For those other signs that don't even attempt to be legal (circle and slash over a gun silhouette, etc.), again it depends on my relationship with the establishment and its employees, and how badly I need their particular services.

As to private homes, you really have to ask yourself how important these folks are to you. My own mother, whom I love very much and don't get to see often enough (she lives in California) is rabidly anti. She doesn't even permit firearms related conversation in her house. She sure as hell isn't going to allow me to carry a weapon into her home. Well, how badly do I want to see my mother? Is my relationship with my mother more important than my need to carry a gun into her house? Of course it is. If someone else wanted to carry in my house, it would depend on how well I knew them, and how much I trusted them. I would definitely not want an armed stranger in my home. I would expect common courtesy to dictate that the individual would just automatically leave their weapon in the car unless they had first asked my permission. I trust all of my friends. My friends are all welcome to carry if they feel the need. Strangers have not yet earned my trust, and in that event, I want to be the only one armed.

Those are just a few thoughts about signs and homes.