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flechero wrote: ↑Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:37 pm I'm not ultra keen on the way it was handled either, but the current suit stinks like rotten eggs and is completely unrelated, regardless of how many times people try to refer back to the drop issue. Her gun wasn't dropped- it was inside a big ol purse full of crap, loosly held in an ill fit holster with a partially exposed trigger. What could possibly go wrong?!?!?

That appears to be the bottom line for me too. And this is the reason I refuse to pocket carry without a holster—even if I believe that "there’s nothing else in that pocket". It’s too easy for something to interfere with the trigger's function, either by pulling on it, or obstructing the internals when you most need it to function.

Years ago, we had a thread on this forum discussing an ND while holstering, in which the subject nicked his own butt or hip while holstering his pistol while sitting in his car seat. I don’t recall if the subject was a forum member, or was known to the member who posted it. In any case, the cause of the ND was a too-soft leather holster in which the edge of the holster's opening got pushed into the trigger guard ahead of the trigger while the subject was shoving the gun back into the holster while seated in his car.

Well, it’s possible for pocket or pants material to bunch up and snag a trigger (or catch on a hammer spur). Or, if you’re a lady cop with more gun than sense, it’s possible—even likely—that a purse-carried pistol in a holster not designed to fit that model, with a partially exposed trigger might fire without the operator's intent……which situation is a negligent one set up by the operator. She may not have intended her gun to fire, but it DID fire, and that is directly traceable to conditions SHE created.

Paladin wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 9:47 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 5:56 pm Wait……isn’t the M17 basically just a P320 in kaki underwear? If the gun is so dang dangerous, how did it pass military acceptance trials?

How did Universal Camouflage Pattern (UCP) ever pass military acceptance trials?

Why don't military rifles have free-floated barrels?

Big Army does stupid things in Big Ways.

The dirty little secret that anyone who has served knows is that the military is actually one of the worst offenders when it comes to wasting American tax dollars.

No worries, its us paying for all that government waste.

I agree that as a general institution, our military is as wasteful as it gets—except for maybe the Marine Corps, which gets everyone else's cast-offs and has done more with less throughout its entire history. But to the point with the Sig M17, these pistols have been issued now for a while, and in some quantity. How many of them "just went off" all by their onesies? I’m guessing none, or it would already be being dissected in Congress, with dems blaming it all on "drumpf" because he’s STILL living rent free in their heads.

flechero wrote: ↑Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:14 am

Scott B. wrote: ↑Thu Aug 26, 2021 9:23 pm This detective's gun is a post 2017 gun. From the picture, it's either an X model or more likely a PRO LE model.

The gun in the pics and video was a replacement, she said. It was issued to her after the gun in question was taken for examination and analysis. However she did also say that her original gun (that she was shot with) was an upgraded version.

The most telling part of the interview was when the reporter and the detective were looking at the gun, holster and purse... she grabs the gun and starts moving it around in the holster and says look, the trigger is mostly covered and the gun only moves around a little bit, how could anything gotten in that area and activated the trigger in the purse?

My reaction to that is that of the gun moves around in the holster, and the trigger is not fully covered, then that holster was not designed for that gun, and she’s responsible for the results.

Wait……isn’t the M17 basically just a P320 in kaki underwear? If the gun is so dang dangerous, how did it pass military acceptance trials? Answer: it’s not that dangerous. I remember when it was first released to the commercial market that there was a big kerfuffle because the 320 could be induced to fire with a strong blow to the back of the slide or by being dropped. This was fairly extensively documented by several gun writers/vloggers at the time. Bit after some initial public pressure, Sig addressed the problem and fixed it. In fact, when Sig released an initially-flawed P365, the publicity problem in that case was exacerbated by the previous P320 history. But, they stepped up and fixed that model too. As I recall, by the time the P320 had been entered into the military trials (the specifications of which seemed deliberately skewed in favor of the Sig from the get-go), the safety issues had already been resolved.

The whole issue of the Serpa holster being a known safety hazard aside, is it possible that the detective's pistol was a P320 legacy model that hadn’t yet been fixed by Sig? Something stinks here.

BTW, and just out of curiosity, why did the DoD insist on a level of modularity it doesn’t really use outside of Tier 1 operations, when we KNOW beyond any reasonable doubt that Glock's 19 MHS offering was drop safe? I do realize that price was an issue, and there were other issues like ammo manufacturing etc., but the whole modularity thing seems to have been a red herring to predispose the outcome in Sig's favor. As to price, was Glock way overcharging, or was Sig way undercharging? Historically, on the commercial market, Sigs have always seemed to me to be somewhat more expensive than Glocks. So, either something fishy was going on……OR……maybe Glock didn’t want the contract that badly because the fedgov’t is a PIA. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The biggest problem I see in this article is the writer/editor's insistence on using the term "uncommanded discharge", pushing the notion that guns will just "go off by themselves", without any external input. Even in its initially flawed state, BEFORE Sig had even acknowledged a problem with the initially released pistols, they did NOT just go off by themselves. True, they went off without a trigger pull, but the firing WAS initiated by an external input such as being dropped or struck hard from behind. They didn’t just discharge while they were just sitting there motionless. Whoever has the most ink gets to set the terms, inaccurate though they may be. Thus, modern sporting rifles become "assault rifles" and "weapons of war", and Bei Den Jo the senile old child-sniffer who shows off his leg hair to the kids down at the local pool, becomes Joe Biden the compassionate visionary and military strategy expert.

We are so hosed. THIS is why the Boog could happen.