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txinvestigator wrote:

pt145ss wrote: I would think that a LEO can say he saw what he suspected to be tool marks in his report based on his experience, but until evidence and analysis of those tool marks are put in front of a jury and the jury accepts the evidence as true...then and only then is it fact. Do you think if something like that went to trial and a prosecutor said to the jury you do not need evidence of tool marks because it is fact that they are tool marks simply because a LEO put it in the report…I think the prosecutor would have a hard time telling that to a jury.

You watch too much CSI.

LOL...maybe i do....

txinvestigator wrote:

WildBill wrote:

txinvestigator wrote:No

Please explain.

Cop makes a contact and ends up arresting for burglary.

He writes, "the two men were crouching by the door. The door had fresh tool marks on it and subject 1 had a crow bar in his hand". Those are facts.

If he simply wrote, " Two suspicious men were trying to break into the building" ; that is a conclusion based on the facts. ;)

I would think that a LEO can say he saw what he suspected to be tool marks in his report based on his experience, but until evidence and analysis of those tool marks are put in front of a jury and the jury accepts the evidence as true...then and only then is it fact. Do you think if something like that went to trial and a prosecutor said to the jury you do not need evidence of tool marks because it is fact that they are tool marks simply because a LEO put it in the report…I think the prosecutor would have a hard time telling that to a jury.

WildBill wrote:

pt145ss wrote:A medical examiner can say something to the like that based on the amount of blood found at the scene that there was enough blood loss to cause death. But that does not mean that someone is dead…it is entirely possible the person is still alive. In the above scenario, a grand jury would make the decision as to whether there is enough evidence to support the claim that someone is dead.

If you have a corpse, any reasonable person would conclude that the person is dead.

I agree 100% a courpse is good evidence to support that. I was just pointing that on this particular forum it has been argued that only a jury can determine fact. Now it is said that a reports has facts, not yet seen by a jury. Search finders of fact or something like that to see what I am talking about.

WildBill wrote:[quote="pt145ss
I thought facts were not facts until a trier of facts (a jury) says it is a fact. This is at least what has been argued so vigoursly on this forum.

Without a jury it can be established as a fact that there is a dead body. The jury determines if it was murder and if the accused is guilty.[/quote]

A medical examiner can say something to the like that based on the amount of blood found at the scene that there was enough blood loss to cause death. But that does not mean that someone is dead…it is entirely possible the person is still alive. In the above scenario, a grand jury would make the decision as to whether there is enough evidence to support the claim that someone is dead.

I understand what you are trying to say and I agree. My point was that on many occasions it has been argued on this forum that the only people who can determine facts are the jury and anyone else is just speculating what a jury would find to be fact.

txinvestigator wrote:

KBCraig wrote:Reports contain statements, not "facts". The report might only state what you said: "She was given proper written notice."

Unless the report references a specific sign or "written communication" along with evidence that she was given such notice, we have no way of knowing if such a statement is true or not.

Reports contain facts & statements made by victims, suspects and witnesses.

A fact is something that has occurred or is known to be true. Conclusions are opinions based on facts, and should not be in reports.

I thought facts were not facts until a trier of facts (a jury) says it is a fact. This is at least what has been argued so vigoursly on this forum.