TexasCHLforum.com

KBCraig wrote:It's just like the endless debates we've had about the (posted, but city-owned) American Airlines Center: you're not in violation of the law if you carry there (except according to Frankie ), but if they catch you up front, there's little you can do to force them to let you in.

There we go. Makes sense. Grillking Out.

GrillKing wrote: I guess the legislature did specifically regulate the carrying of firearms on prison grounds. Thanks KBCraig!!

After actually reading this administrative code, it appears to me that this is a TDCJ policy. Some of this appears to me to be incorrect interpretation of state law regarding CHL carry at a prison. I return to my original position that CHL carry on the parking lots IS legal. I'm bowing out now. My head has exploded!!!!

§ 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE
HOLDER.
(3) on the premises of a correctional facility;
(f) In this section:
(3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a
building. The term does not include any public or private driveway,
street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other
parking area.

KBCraig wrote:Title 37 of the Texas Administrative Code:

RULE §151.21 Weapons Policy

(a) Policy.

(1) The Texas Department of Criminal Justice (TDCJ) requires that all persons carrying a firearm shall unload and safely secure the firearm prior to entering a TDCJ correctional facility. For purposes of visiting a TDCJ correctional facility, a peace officer, a person licensed to carry a handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, or a person who is otherwise authorized to carry a deadly weapon shall unload and secure the weapon(s) in the locked trunk of a vehicle, or a locked compartment of a vehicle if the vehicle does not have a trunk, immediately upon parking or while stopped at the first security checkpoint, whichever occurs first. A peace officer may also store his weapon in any other TDCJ authorized location prior to entering the perimeter fence.


More here.

I guess the legislature did specifically regulate the carrying of firearms on prison grounds. Thanks KBCraig!!

KBCraig wrote:The warden has the legal authority to deny entrance to anyone.

I disagree. It's not a 30.06 issue, I agree with you there, but it is an issue that governmental entities other than the legislature do NOT have legal authority to regulate the transportation of firearms. That is the law. If I have a legitimate need to be on prison grounds, whether or not I am a CHL carrying or not is NOT RELEVENT under the law. I know that not just anyone can enter the prison grounds, but those that do cannot be (actually should not be) denied entry on the basis of CHL carry (PC 30.06 restricting governmental entities and PC 30.05 defense to restriction on the basis of CHL carry alone).

Challenge: Show me where the warden can restrict, I think(?) I've shown where he cannot. (I realize he actually does, but he shouldn't. I also would not fight that battle at the gate, but it irks me that people don't adhere to the law like I do.)

Starvin wrote:While a warden cannot take away from the rules, he can and will enhance them to suit his respective unit on an "as needed" basis.

By 'enhancing' the rules, the warden is taking away. He does not have the legal authority to do so. I agree, common courtesy goes a long way, but where do you draw the line on 'enhancing' the rules? I understand the issue with CHL and prisons, but the correct way to solve the problem is to change the law.

Chuck Rosenthal enhances the rules. The Plano ISD enhances the rules. The city of San Antonio enhances the rules. The law is the law. Period. Enhancement comes through the legislature.

I don't think it would fly if I enhanced the rules and drove 90mph because I am running a little late. Again, I EXPECT those in authority, who work for me the taxpayer, to follow the rules, just as I do.

I'm done ranting now!!!!

ctxpta wrote:Isn't Huntsville where execution's are carried out? If so then make sure if you go on a day they are having one that you stay beyond 1000 feet with your Concealed Handgun.

You must stay 1000+ feet beyond the 'premises' (building) where an execution is to be carried out.

jbirds1210 wrote:As unpopular as this statement might be, I do not feel that there is any need for anyone to leave a firearm inside of their car in a prison parking lot Things go much smoother when an inmate is not armed. That said, I would surely not want to deny anyone the right to secure it while they are taking care of their business.

Jason

Let's change the law if that's the route we want to go!!! If we do, however, there has to be provision for CHL's to secure their handgun.

BTW, I would do what everyone else says they would do. I would submit to the rules if I needed to visit a prison. I know I wouldn't win that argument at the prison gate.

I just hate to see these prisons make their own rules, the Plano ISD post 30.06 signs (I think we mostly agree they are non-binding, but may result in a free ride in a patrol car), the city I live in have an ordinance against CHL carry in any city owned building, etc. I am law abiding and I expect these government agencies (who, by the way, work for me. I don't work for them) to live by the law as well.

KBCraig wrote: Lawyers don't have a "legal right to visit" clients in prison. I have seen lawyers denied visits, and I've seen legal visits terminated.

OK, but some inmates at some points do have a legal right to counsel, right? The point is that there are people with legitimate business in the prison complex who are being forced to abide by arbitrary rules not compliant with state law. Again, I'm not saying the 'rules' are right / wrong, but if the rules need to be different, change the law!

My concern is the bigger picture across agencies / gov't entities statewide, who gets to make the rules?? Maybe I'm missing something, but I thought it was the legislature.

Also, there are probably all kinds of other persons having legitimate business at the prison not related to visiting an inmate. Plus some people I would think would have a legal right to visit an inmate (lawyer) that cannot be denied like a it could be with friends or family. So, removing them from the visitors list isn't (shouldn't be) really a concern for them.

Again, I'm not saying the prison is wrong for what they want, just that they don't really have authority to restrict CHL carry above what the legislature has already set. If the law needs changing, we (the legislature) should change the law.

To me this is really more than the prison, I don't know or visit anyone there. The bigger picture is that governmental entities should follow the law, just as I do. I get penalized if I don't, there seems to be no consequence for them.

dustyb wrote:I personally think "securing" your firearm in a trunk, compartment, etc., is a pretty small accomodation to make at a prison. Understandably, prison staff are concerned with the security of their units and their employees. Although the law does not "require" it now, I personally would not mind seeing the law ammended to require securing your firearms at a prison.

I don't disagree, it's just that I don't get to pick and choose which laws I follow and neither should the warden. If we need to be more restrictive at prisons than what the law currently allows, we should change the law.

dustyb wrote:I found this link on the TDCJ website dated November 2002.

http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/publication ... tation.PDF

page 11 basically says a CHL holder does not trespass on TDCJ property, if the handgun is secured in a lock vehicle, i.e. trunk, locked compartment. I am curious if this policy has been updated since the "car carry" law was enacted last September.

dustyb, thanks. That is interesting, but that policy is still not compliant with state law. State law says a CHL can carry on their person (where carry is allowed) or in their vehicle and it doesn't have to be locked in the trunk. For a traveler to such a facility, their policy is livable, but it isn't compliant. Again, it is that all these state agencies think (actually they do) make their own rules that don't follow the law. Like others have said though, I wouldn't fight it at the gate!!

Oh well.....

dustyb wrote:Even though there is probably a TDCJ policy, it probably is not consistant with state law and probably varies from unit to unit in reality.

That's really my beef, is that you can't depend on governmental agencies to follow the law so you can't plan adequately for your travels. If there were no carry permitted on the premises of a prison due to acts of the legislature, that is one thing. But the legislature says it is OK and it looks like many local units do their own thing. All I ask is for them to follow the law, like I do.

Charles L. Cotton wrote:I had to interview a witness that worked for my client before going to prison. I met with him at the prison in Cotulla, TX. Since "premises" is statutorily defined, I didn't think twice about leaving the gun in my car, until I got to the gate and saw a sign basically saying "no guns." I called the prison from outside the gate and the warden met me at my car, took the gun into the prison and told a guard to let me have it when I was leaving.

The warden thanked me for calling and letting me know about the gun, but they really didn't seem too concerned.

Chas.

Chas.,

My problem with this is the warden has no authority to do anything other than allow lawful carry by a CHL on the 'premises' as define in the Penal Code. Too many mayors, city councils, police chiefs, etc., think they can regulate CHL carry in their jurisdiction where the transportation of handguns by a CHL is clearly, explicitly and exclusively defined by the legislature.

Unfortunately, too many of these 'mini-legislators' seem to know that the threat (whether real or imagined) of a ride in the back of a patrol car is enough to persuade most CHL holders to not be able to exercise the right defined by the legislature.

There needs to be a way (2009???) to clear these types of clearly not legally enforcible situations when they arise.

Gary