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chasfm11 wrote:Perhaps you should consider an RV type that is not being targeted at the same level as your van type. At some point the insurance companies are likely to pick up on such a high rate of associated crime and start charging more because of it. My RV insurance has always been less per year than my passenger vehicles. While I'm sure that that is due to the insurance company's expectation of the number of miles that I drive it, the comprehensive component to the insurance would be higher if my type was being broken into at a similar rate to yours Like not deliberately going into a bad neighborhood to avoid trouble, having something that attracts less criminal interest might be a better choice in the long run.

I can see where some people would choose to do exactly that, and in many situations, they would be wise to do so. The first and best line of defense in ANY scenario is to keep a low profile and do not attract the attention of aspiring predators. My daily driver intentionally looks like a manure heap for this reason - dirty, cluttered, etc. After having two daily driver break-ins earlier in my life, I decided I didn't want to deal with that scene any longer. So I now drive an older high-mileage car which is a mess. Nobody breaks into the likes of it because, even if there are valuables in it, it would be impossible to locate them in all that mess!! I'm a fairly organized person and it annoys me to keep a car like that, but in THAT context, it represents the lesser of evils to me.

However - and this is a big 'however' - my husband and I decided to team up on this off-grid van project, and it really has become a hobby that we wish to continue to enjoy. We've put thousands of hours of DIY and a great deal of financial investment into it, and it is literally one of a kind by this point - there is no other vehicle that resembles it, and very few in existence anywhere that have comparable technical capabilities.

Therefore, it is here that I feel like taking a stand. This gets into the "free country" head space. It's a free country, this is what I've decided I want to do, and now I have to respond to the corresponding risks with appropriate preparations. That's just the nature of the beast.

Other owners of this general type of van typically feel similarly. Very often on the van-centric forums we hear the sentiment expressed, "I worked hard and saved money for 40 years, and now at this stage of my life, this is the ONE THING that I want for myself in terms of a personal reward."

WTR wrote:...
I think trying to return fire at a remote shooter is fruitless . The shooter knows where you are ( might even have a night scope). You have no idea where to return fire.The shooter fires , you expose yourself to return fire. The shooter nails you. Better to hunker down and wait for the shooter to come to you. All you need is a pistol and a shotgun.

Myself, I'm solely concerned with vehicle invasion scenarios. In every break-in case that I've heard about to date, because of the way that the owners were using their vehicles, they didn't come face-to-face with a criminal. In my case, there's an excellent chance that I would still be in the vehicle at the time of a similar break-in.

As examples:

(1) In the break-in case I mentioned above, both of the Wendlands exited their vehicle in an upscale shopping area in order to go into a restaurant. More often than not, when my husband and I stop to eat, he goes into the restaurant and orders food, while I wait in the van. We either eat after having resumed driving, or, we remain in the parking lot and eat there. Why?? Because restaurants are crazy-noisy - loud music, people shouting over one another, dishes hitting the floor. If we are on a cross-country road trip and we stop to rest, we want QUIET for a few minutes, because the interstate highway system is also deafening. Moments of quiet are essential for sanity on long-haul trips.

(2) In another case, one of our forum regulars had his new van broken into at his residence less than 24 hours after he purchased it (the thief inflicted $3,000 worth of damage on his first day of ownership, yippee). Well, if that had been me, I would likely have been in that van at the time of the break-in. I routinely sleep in the van while testing systems modifications and other DIY improvements (it IS an off-grid van, and the ability to sleep / live in it is the whole point).

(3) In another case, one of our forum regulars had his van broken into during the first 30 minutes of being parked on a "guarded" pay lot near the St. Louis Gateway Arch (IIRC, the police speculated that the pay lot was actually being run by organized crime, not by a legitimate service provider). Well, I typically arrive at a destination and the first thing I do is have a short nap to recharge my energy. So I would likely have been inside the van in THAT scenario, too.

(4) In another case, an Instagram vanner was broken into while staying at a friend's residence, with the van parked in the friend's driveway. Again, I wouldn't have been staying in any friend's house - I would have been in the van itself.

(5) In another case, a vanner was broken into while parked in a public beach lot. Again, I would likely have been in the van during the conditions described.

Those are some examples of why I'm fixated on this specific scenario.

I think that tracking can still have value in relative if not absolute terms. No, we don't know how often it happens in the community as a whole. But I can see how many people there are, who happen to otherwise be regular forum and social media users, who end up having to face a big mess of this kind. And it's a large enough percentage of the "regulars" who eventually get hit, that causes this issue to get my attention.

As for the vans looking "expensive", the challenge we face is that, historically, a large fraction of small RVs have been built predominantly on Sprinters, and every Mercedes Benz Sprinter van looks expensive by simple definition of its badge (except for obvious commercial vehicles like contractor trucks). There could be nothing more than sleeping bags, a camp stove, and plywood boxes set up on the inside of any given Sprinter, and the outside would still look very attractive to thieves. We are starting to see small RVs and camper vans built instead on the Promaster and Transit platforms, which perhaps appear a bit less rich, but that movement is in its infancy.

Instagram is particularly useful for retrieving those smaller, older vans that lack sophisticated electronic ignition lock-out technology, and which therefore are sometimes stolen outright (rather than broken into). As soon as that photo gets posted with a STOLEN caption, the entire community shifts into lookout-mode. And the vans often do get recovered because of tips gleaned from the hive-mind of Instagram.

chasfm11 wrote: ... I get it from the OP that having high end electronics visible can change the remote possibility of being a victim in an RV significantly. But we've had our RV since 2004, have over 60K miles on it, driving it all over the country and have never come close to an incident in a "camped" situation. I've tried to query my RV neighbors within that same timeframe and have yet to hear even a secondhand story about an incident while parked.
....

Instagram might make you a believer.


Retrospectively, I realize that it would have been to my own benefit, and to the benefit of other people by establishing fact-based perspective, to create a small spreadsheet to capture the basic details of the break-ins that vanners in particular have historically reported on social media. Those reports formed the basis for what I do know about the general modis operandi - for instance, the reports that vehicle invaders most often enter through the driver's door, which is something that I would not have predicted.

As one example of such a break-in, and this also relates back to what another poster mentioned about in-vehicle security systems, two of the most prominent social media "stars" of the van world had their rig broken into (I haven't figured out how to seamlessly embed a link here, but if you google 'Roadtreking RV burglary', you can see their report). When I heard that, my first thought was, "Oh my word - somebody actually had the nerve to break into the Wendlands' vehicle?!" but of course, criminals do not read blogs and social media before choosing their targets, duh.

The Wendlands responded with a number of new in-vehicle countermeasures, including the installation of an IP camera / motion detector which communicates with them through a cellular air card when they are away from their van. In the event of another break-in, the camera will immediately ping their phones (assuming they are in cell range), plus it will take pictures of the invader and send those to their phones as well. This scheme potentially will allow for the summoning of police and interception of the criminals before they leave the area. The camera brand they chose was Canary, but new products are emerging in the marketplace all the time. Such devices are potentially of interest to anyone who believes that they have a higher-than-average chance of vehicle burglary or robbery. Entry costs are low for the basic IP tech described above, although people with single-battery vehicles (chassis only) may want to think carefully about how they supply power to both the camera and the cellular hot spot that it requires to communicate with the outside world.

Getting back to another comment, the electronics don't have to be visible - I never, ever leave anything visible in my rig, as that is just asking for trouble. If the van itself appears "expensive", that's more than enough to draw attention. Owners of mainstream RVs and trailers might indeed suffer less from this risk, in a variation of the "safety in numbers" theme and because a more ordinary RV may suggest more ordinary theft pickin's and therefore would be of correspondingly diminished interest to thieves.

Regarding the "court of public opinion" consideration, I had not thought of that, but in THIS area, that wouldn't concern me too much because it is sufficiently conservative (thankfully). Plus it's a losing battle anyway. The other day, in response to an unrelated matter, my husband said to me, "You have to be careful not to lose control of that narrative." I replied (paraphrased), "With the way society is right now and all the extreme polarization, the only way not to lose control of the narrative is to never have a narrative in the first place, which is unrealistic." In other words, no matter what we do, we are guaranteed to end up recast in a bad light by somebody. It's assured.

Yes re: the dog, both in terms of an early warning system (our dog is superb in this respect) and the "Beware of Dog" signage idea as an alternative to advertising the presence of firearms via signage.

In fact, I experimented with such a "Beware" sign as I was driving to eastern Canada this past summer. I / we do long-haul cross-country trips that preclude the use of conventional campgrounds because we arrive too late for check-ins, and we are just grabbing Z's anyway, so no need to avail ourselves of elaborate facilities. For those of you who are not familiar with #vanlife, there are three major chain retailers that, by corporate policy, have chosen to allow overnight parking on their private property, a practice that has come to be covered within the realm of "boondocking". Those three retailers are Walmart, Cracker Barrel, and Cabela's. Walmart is the most prominent of the three and so the nickname given to the practice of overnighting in a Walmart parking lot is "Wallydocking". Similarly, we are moving toward usage of the slang terms "Crackerdocking" and "Cabeladocking". The neat thing about signing a vehicle is that, rather than defacing the vehicle with adhesive applications, the signs can be mounted on sheet magnets and simply stuck on the exterior of the vehicle when one feels the need. So here's a pic of my van at a Cabela's on the Tennessee / Virginia border, with the "Beware of Dog" magnet in place on the driver's door, where it arguably should be. I am a huge Cabela's brand loyalist because of this value-added service that they offer to long-distance voyagers - I won't buy anything at another store if Cabela's carries it, even if the price is lower (I bought the new S&W mentioned above at Cabela's League City). At this Virginia location shown here, Cabela's even offered a free dump station. It's hard to put a price on that kind of service.

Here is a related question on general strategy.

With almost all vehicles, drivers pull up to a destination, exit the vehicle, and walk away. With an off-grid van, RV, or a work truck, the opposite tends to occur. We arrive, remain inside, and begin our work (or take a nap!).

The distinction is important because criminals generally assume that parked vehicles are empty, and so they break in with that expectation in mind. They break in specifically because they don't expect any resistance.

The number one priority is to avoid confrontations in which self defense may become a necessity, so I try to do everything reasonable to raise a doubt in peoples' minds about the prevailing state of vehicle occupancy. I never, ever, ever leave any window uncovered such that it can be peered through in order to verify whether people are present (and if so, how many). When parked, I use opaque coverings on all windows. I also leave the roof ventilation fan running so that the van makes noise and sounds like it is actively doing something, which means that people might be still in it, which means that thieves might want to stay away.

Those two are common-sense protective measures, but this third one is subject to debate: sometimes I use a sign such as what is shown in the following image that I will attempt to link to from Imgur (new forum for me). Incidentally, I posted this sign in the wrong van window for the purposes of taking this photo, which juxtaposes it against a municipal warning sign that I personally found to be patronizing and somewhat dissociated from reality, but that's a separate discussion. Experience in communicating with other van owners has taught us that break-ins almost always occur through the driver's door, and this shows the sign posted in the curbside window where it might not be seen by an aspiring van invader.

My subjective impression is that, in Texas, posted variants on the theme of "you loot, we shoot" are generally respected more than they are disrespected. Warning signs tend to be heeded here. But I've received feedback on this strategy from people in other states who believe that such attempts are actually more antagonistic than potentially protective, such that, if criminals see a sign such as this, they'll consider it to be a gauntlet that has been thrown down, and maybe they'll attempt a break-in on general principle.

Does anyone have any opinions or insights to add in this context? Thanks.

karder wrote:The M&P is a great choice, but acquiring a weapon is only the first step.
I would recommend you take a tactical training course. They have a number of good courses that teach tactics in close quarters and vehicles which would give you a lot of knowledge and a better understanding of some of the dynamics you might encounter. It will also help you develop an understanding of your personal assets and liabilities and may well change your opinion on what kind of a weapon you want. These can be kind of expensive, especially if you have to travel, but the information you will get from a good course will be invaluable in the event you need it.
Good luck!

I plan to take some courses, yes. I haven't yet had a chance to comb through this forum to see which ones tend to be more highly recommended.

Vol Texan wrote:...Lasers don't help with target identification in the middle of the night. I'd prefer a light attached to the gun's bottom rail to a laser anytime. This helps me know what (and who) I'm aiming at before I make the decision to shoot.

This is a good suggestion, and it's something I had not thought of. Perhaps not in place of laser, but a potential augmentation of some sort, maybe in the form of motion detecting lights. But in almost all scenarios, anyone I find in my van in the middle of the night does not require identification -- they just require being stopped. There was only one situational exception to this, and that was the time that I overnighted in an airport pay lot because my husband was taking a red-eye to my location. So there was a legitimate van entry at 2:00 a.m. He simply walked off the airplane, traversed the parking lot, got inside, and went to sleep. Our dog was with us on that trip, and the dog has an uncanny ability to identify from quite some distance who should and should not be approaching the van. No canine alarm went off that night.

I’m a forum newbie who would like to open a discussion so that people can offer any logistical tips and anecdotes that they may have regarding less-common firearm self-defense scenarios, specifically in the context of both personal and employment-related travel and temporary living accommodations. I searched this forum looking for existing threads with that kind of focus, and I didn’t find any, but if I missed anything, please link to this thread.

Many other user forums, including RV forums, don’t allow this kind of discussion because any such threads quickly become overrun with non-value-added opinions, political flaming, and objections to self-defense generally, to the point where the moderators quickly shut them down.

Unfortunately the need for self-defense in travel and work scenarios is all too real. I had a “friend of a friend” who traveled among a number of his employer’s remote sites to do data logging – that was his job function. A thief spotted the expensive electronic equipment installed in his work truck for this purpose, and murdered the worker on the spot in order to steal that equipment.

In Texas in particular, it’s common for workers to live in temporary accommodations such as site trailers and RVs that are staged in remote areas for the purposes of monitoring field equipment. Some of them are located quite some distance from any law enforcement and basically must defend themselves if it ever comes to it.

One of the most common thread shut-down questions on other forums is, “If I make the personal decision that I am going to carry in my trailer, van, or RV, what is the best choice of firearm given the challenges of the cramped maneuvering space?”

Personally I went round and round, back and forth on this, and what I ultimately chose didn’t bear much resemblance to what I initially imagined that I should have. I actually had to stand in the store with various pieces in my hands, and visualize a vehicle-based scenario, asking myself, “How would I use this one in a real life situation?”

I ended up choosing a S&W M&P M2.0 with the integrated Crimson Trace laser, for two reasons. Number one, I realized that I’m probably never going to be able to acquire proper stance or aim in a van break-in scenario and therefore the laser is essential. Lasers can be put on other pistols, but the design of this one is just so clean and minimalist that it simply made sense to me. Number two, this model has the roughest grip I’ve ever experienced. S&W describes it as an “aggressive grip texture”. I’d call it a “sandpaper” grip. That matters in a vehicle scenario because we typically don’t have the benefit of residential-style climate control. Hands are often damp or downright sweaty – we live in the humid subtropics, after all. In an emergency situation, I could picture my grip slipping with numerous other pistols. This M&P M2.0 is not going anywhere, slimy hands or not.

Anyone have any words of wisdom to add on this topic? Other discussions? Considerations? Lessons learned? Thanks!