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2firfun50 wrote:Its a dark, quiet residential area, someone gets out of a car and starts following you. I'm on high alert. Something bad may just happen. Once the adrenline starts flowing, I'm provoked.

A gated community that TM did not reside in, but was visiting. GZ would not recognize him as a resident there and would then go to condition orange. The fact that there was an unknown (unfamiliar) person wandering in GZ's neighborhood, at night while it was raining without apparent direction or purpose is what made him suspicious, not his race or his clothes. I would hope that adrenaline flow does not automatically equate to violent action.

When I think on this, especially in light of how it would go down in Texas, some big questions arise.

• Why with all of the claims for GZ's arrest and the unrest created by activists and militant groups offering a bounty for him; does the media not report the fact that Zimmerman was cuffed, stuffed and taken in? Why not state the fact that he WAS arrested? Doesn't this make the media outlets culpable if violence ensues?
• Why, if Martin was indeed a peaceful and upright citizen, did the family and media purposefully withhold current and accurate images of Travon Martin?
• Why withhold the police reports that document injuries sustained by GZ and instead harp on statements that none were noticed by those with no contextual contact?
• Why, if martin was a racist, did he take time to tutor and mentor several children who happened to be black? If he was "after" Travon why is there a single shot to the chest at contact distance instead of several from a distance?
• Why did GZ remain at the scene until SPD arrived if he didn't feel absolutely justified?

There is so much more that just blows this whole media frenzy out of the water, but in the final analysis I take but one thing away. If I, in Texas have to shoot to defend myself or a loved one, there had better not be any demographic disparity because my life will be ruined by yellow journalism and activists. But I guess that is what they want...a law abiding citizen to be unable to defend themselves.

Keith B wrote:You guys bring up a very good point that I have always said; While we LEGALLY do not have a requirement to retreat, it may be a better option. Not only may it prevent you from having to enter into a defense situation, it will for darn sure look a lot better for you in the investigation, GJ and or trial if you have witensses that say you tried to deescalate the situation by backing away but were forced into having to defend yourself as you had no other option.

What's the adage? "The only sure way to win a fight is not to be in one," IIRC. I am disinclined to live in fear of going certain places just to avoid any possibility of confrontation, otherwise I would never have gone the places I have to study with people. That said, I would hope that my SA would have me alert to a problem long before it becomes one and I will avoid/retreat if at all possible. There are conceivable situations where these options are neither practical or even possible.

In this exercise we do know that GZ was the first to call 911, which we all agree plays in his favor. And it appears that he reconsidered the "wisdom" of what he was doing and moved to return to his vehicle. So under the PC citations we are considering, it appears TM was not justified in using force, much less deadly force against GZ. OTOH GZ appears to be perfectly justified in the use of deadly force.

TAM: In your scenario on verbal exchanges, unless I misread it, if we are giving GZ the benefit of the doubt we should assume the former instead of the latter.

Edit:

03lightningrocks wrote:Good lord!! It is all over fox news as well! At least fox news is not convicting Zimmerman without a trial. He has to be wishing he had just stayed in the car at this point. The usual "activists" are milking the racial angle for everything they can get out of it.

-em added

Initially they were, it was disgusting and Shepard Smith is the worst, most sanctimonious one of them all.

speedsix wrote:...anything that helps the truth of what happened to be nailed down is germaine to an accurate analysis...if the facts aren't right...neither can be the analysis...
...medicine sure has changed since I was on the streets...an aluminum brace/shield and enough white tape to stop traffic was for noses and wounds were bandaged...I bow to your experience, doubtless from more current times than mine...
...I haven't heard of a detective overlooking his injuries...but there are so many "camps", I guess I just haven't run across it yet...if there were injuries, there will be plenty of witnesses and physical evidence to support them...we've heard for days about all the blood...

RE: Current (a few years since I've ridden the box) EMS Procedures

Somewhere in the early ninties, stabilization of broken noses became contra-indicated, as did packing, etc. Of course that applies to the field and not a controlled environment such as an ER or ENT's office. Cold packs, which would do a great deal towards abating swelling and bruising was about the extent of what we would do and even that was applied by the patient.

We dressed all sorts of wounds, including head wounds. I was speaking specifically to the small "dings" one could expect from bouncing their head of the concrete. I'll use one case I remember specifically as an example.

A man decided to hit on his wife and she took him down and bounced his head off of the sidewalk three or four good whacks ( a little irony if you like that sort of thing). He had several small lacerations on the back of his scalp (like 1/8" or so) and bled like a stuck pig initially. We had the patient hold a gauze bandage over the wounds and apply pressure while we finished the assessment. By the time we got back to the head, the bleeding had stopped although a pretty good mat had formed in his short hair. We hit it with H2O2 and cleared away the coagulated blood, cleaned him up leaving what amounted to several little scabbed over cuts. At that point, maybe 20 minutes in, a dressing was not indicated and someone not specifically looking for the injuries could well have missed them.

So speculating a similar circumstance with Zimmerman; one officer's statement that he did not see the wounds and the lack of such visual indicators 8 hours later on an admittedly fuzzy video would be perfectly consistent.

As we watch this unfold, we need to remember that a laceration is a laceration regardless of severity, knuckles don't always show evidence of striking another (even multiple times) especially if the blood flow (that would have produced the inflammation) was interrupted by heart stoppage. Head wounds and broken nose don't always get dressed even if EMS is involved. If Zimmerman's attorney and police that responded are saying there was injury, I would bet they have evidence of such because they would have to know it would be tested.

speedsix wrote:...so have I, but I have seen medics put a bandage on head wounds to keep them clean, and something on a broken nose to keep it still...plenty of times...one of the videos on the news zoomed in when the back of his head was turned to the camera...no visible damage...just shine...

...with the "facts" changing and contradicting each other...before you can do an accurate analysis, you have to either find out what the facts are...or choose the set you want to accept...or the analysis won't be worth anything...too many controversial sides to the story at this point...

Having treated many, many similar injuries in the field, there is nothing (including the video) that is inconsistent with the Zimmerman/PD version of the injuries. Small lacerations to the scalp will bleed profusely initially but will abate with direct pressure after a few moments. There are many incidents in my memory where once we stemmed the bleeding, we used H2O2 to clean the scalp and the area without applying any dressings. Likewise I have treated several broken noses, often in concert with the aforementioned injuries. Bleeding is often minimal or absent as a "broken nose" is a separation of the septal cartilage from the nasal or ethmoid bone (the latter more likely to bleed). I have seen many where there was no bruising and only mild swelling. Infact my own daughter has a deviated septum from a broken nose and had no bleeding and only mild bruising at the time of the injury.

So there are plenty of times where a head dressing was neither indicated nor desired and I have never moved to stabilize a broken nose. Eight hours later with a clean up and ice packs, I can see why the detective in the station could easily overlook the injuries and how none would be apparent on a video of less than optimal resolution. Not germane to the topic at hand, but since it was brought up...