Okay, insult me by suggesting I'm a slow reader, OR BEING A WASTE OF YOUR TIME. At no point did you see me answer a question with, "I don't care what they use." Civilains most often make choices based on what LE uses, which we know from the obsession people have in following the FBIs lead for their carry ammo.AndyC wrote: ↑Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:03 pmNo - just so WE are clear, I wasn't talking about whatever your favorite bullet is through whatever your favorite twist-rate is - all so that it favors a rifle YOU like.
Once again, in case you're a slow reader: you asked "what advantage could a bullpup possibly have over a short-barrel AR/M4, or pistol with a shoulder brace" - and I answered that. If you want to go off on a tangent or move the goalposts, that's your problem - you DO realize that carlson is NOT an SF operator operating out to 300+ yards? Why you feel that's relevant to his needs is beyond me.
Yeah, I remember the fiasco that resulted when LE started using subsonic 147gr ammo in their 9mm pistols "because Navy SEALs use them" *hero worship* - and they failed to take into account the context in which the SEALs needed that round (accuracy and suppression through an MP5, NOT expansion) - and suddenly the LE boys were having massive failures-to-stop because of no expansion. Gee, who'da thunk? THAT is why I don't care what spec-ops use.Just an FYI, but no country has as many LE Agencies as the USA. A fairly high percentage of them have Special Weapons units. The first place they look to for guidance are our Spec-Ops units.
It seems that, according to you, we should all just ditch every single weapon we have and just use YOUR favorite M4 in YOUR favorite bullet-type, weight, barrel-length and twist-rate because obviously everything else is all bloody useless (apparently because SF doesn't use them). Is that right? Yeah, I sure need that awesome 1 MOA match bullet indoors...
Gee, really? You don't say... *eyeroll* Kicked in many doors, have you? You're just a waste of my time.
I'm speaking facts as they relate to elite military and LE units where you might want to check on how many of them use bullpups? In operations by any of these types of units where CQB is on the menu, the entry teams are far more likely to be using sub-guns like the HK MP5 for the house clearing. But this certainly brings up another point; that being in any of those cases the weapons will have full-auto capability. Do I really need to offer an explanation for why they would use a 9mm sub-gun?
So far, no one in this thread whom owns a Tavor has endorsed their accuracy. Since they're semi-auto, would you choose one? For me, Inaccurate + Expensive = no thanks. And I don't think many of us, with you being the exception, would ignore what professionals use extensively. To simply say that a bullpup has an advantage because of compactness tends to ignore its disadvantages while you are obviously basing your opinions on civilian use. Maybe you had actual experience with them in Kimbosaland or wherever. I understand that there was once a good exchage of military hardware with the Israelis, so maybe you've actually fired one.
As far as my personal choice, I never had much interest in ARs until the loads Chris Kyle developed for SOCOM. Since we live in the real world where we're confined to semi-auto weapons, nuff said. As far as hero-worship, I tend to reserve that for Christ and heros of the Bible. But I doubt that any Texan doesn't have an appreciation in knowing that a Texan is considered the most lethal sniper in history, and if you know his story, you know that he climbed down from the rooftops to help Marines that did not have adequate CQB training, in leading their house clearing teams. What can I say? Chris Kyle was born the same year that I entered the US Navy and he used his AR PDW when he dropped down to lend a hand.
Your opinions concerning subsonic 147 gr. JHPs in 9 x 19mm is more than seriously flawed; it's totally inaccurate. The FBI took their lead from Dr. Martin Fackler insisting that a 147 gr. subsonic JHP would have penetrated Maddox's heart, ending the fight at Miami in 1986, where the 115 gr. SilverTip did not get there by a very few millimeters, even though it provided plenty enough permanent stretch cavity for rapid blood loss as his minions continue to push. The reason our special operations units were using 9mm 147 gr. Subsonic ammo, FMJ ,BTW, was because it was the heaviest weight in the caliber whereby being subsonic allowed sound suppression to be adequate. then we know they all got an upgrade via the HK Mk 23 in .45 ACP.
So, in being a waste of your time while you continue to read what I post, while I chose to give the alternate view while one was not being offered when the OP stated one might be useful, well, I guess one would have to ask . . . why?
By all means, return to your bullet casting that appears to be the limit of your capabilities. Maybe ventilate your lead casting area a bit better!
