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sjfcontrol wrote:
Keith B wrote:
Since it says 'a record of each document....' I don't believe they are talking about the certification for the instructor, but the records where the instructor has kept showing they certified the student shooting proficiency. Didn't they used to have a score sheet you filled out for each student, but no longer keep? Maybe that is what the code was referring to? Today that would be CHL-100's and the CHL-8's
Well, not since I've been an instructor. The only score sheet I've seen was at the DPS range. I presume they had the same card at your training. 3x5 i think, signed by the student and the scorer, as I recall. They kept it. THere was no discussion (that I recall) about keeping anything similar for our students.
I took my class July of 2010.

I am not sure, but believe back in the early days they did before they told everyone to stop keeping scores and go to pass/fail only.

sjfcontrol wrote:
Keith B wrote:Is it possible when you talked to her on the phone she said they needed to see your 'certification' of proficiency? See below

Texas Administrative Code

TITLE 37 PUBLIC SAFETY AND CORRECTIONS
PART 1 TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY
CHAPTER 6 LICENSE TO CARRY HANDGUNS
SUBCHAPTER G CERTIFIED HANDGUN INSTRUCTORS
RULE §6.87 Instructor Record Retention

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(a) Records to be retained and available for inspection. A certified handgun instructor shall make available for inspection to the department any and all records maintained by a certified handgun instructor under the Act. A certified handgun instructor shall retain the following:
(1) a record of each document reflecting the instructor's certification of proficiency as provided in §6.11(d) of this title (relating to Proficiency Requirements);
(2) a record of each license applicant who has applied for instruction, whether accepted or rejected for instruction;
(3) post-test scores;
(4) written critiques or notes made by the instructor;
(5) proficiency demonstrations;
(6) course materials; and
(7) copies of reports submitted to the department.
(b) Records must be retained for a period of three years after completion. Records must be stored in a safe and secure place and must be available for inspection by authorized officers of the department.

And what precisely would that be for any current instructor? I don't believe anybody has yet been qualified by another instructor, and DPS did not give me anything other than the certificate. (And a password on a fortune-cookie paper.)

Since it says 'a record of each document....' I don't believe they are talking about the certification for the instructor, but the records where the instructor has kept showing they certified the student shooting proficiency. Didn't they used to have a score sheet you filled out for each student, but no longer keep? Maybe that is what the code was referring to? Today that would be CHL-100's and the CHL-8's

Is it possible when you talked to her on the phone she said they needed to see your 'certification' of proficiency? See below

Texas Administrative Code

TITLE 37 PUBLIC SAFETY AND CORRECTIONS
PART 1 TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY
CHAPTER 6 LICENSE TO CARRY HANDGUNS
SUBCHAPTER G CERTIFIED HANDGUN INSTRUCTORS
RULE §6.87 Instructor Record Retention

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(a) Records to be retained and available for inspection. A certified handgun instructor shall make available for inspection to the department any and all records maintained by a certified handgun instructor under the Act. A certified handgun instructor shall retain the following:
(1) a record of each document reflecting the instructor's certification of proficiency as provided in §6.11(d) of this title (relating to Proficiency Requirements);
(2) a record of each license applicant who has applied for instruction, whether accepted or rejected for instruction;
(3) post-test scores;
(4) written critiques or notes made by the instructor;
(5) proficiency demonstrations;
(6) course materials; and
(7) copies of reports submitted to the department.
(b) Records must be retained for a period of three years after completion. Records must be stored in a safe and secure place and must be available for inspection by authorized officers of the department.

wgoforth wrote:
speedsix wrote:...that makes it umanimous...
All joking aside, this shows a problem that can be expected...it is hard enough to get all at DPS to give same answers. Throw another agency in, and it seems to beg for an increase in contradictory information. Am I wrong here?

There is no 'other agency', it's all DPS. I am sure if these types of misunderstandings (target color, scores not being kept, etc) come up in the audit, they will be addressed quickly and the auditor(s) corrected on the issue and given the right informaiton.

wgoforth wrote:
I do recall being some flap a while back on black targets, as some group was claiming it was racist.

Well, I guess shooting Martians or guys from the Blue Man Group is OK cause they are not a protected class. LOL

wgoforth wrote:
pottssr wrote:I was called about 4 weeks ago and an inspector form DPS made an appointment to come and audit our class files. She (Donna) was from the Hurst, Texas office (our classroom is in Watauga). She came to the classroom and checked all of our CHL instructor certificates, checked our B-27 targets for color and size (24x45 inches). (Black is not an authorized target color anymore - hasn't made to the instructor level yet). She checked (at random) 3 years of class files. The items that have to be in each class file is the applicantion of each student applying to the class (sign-in sheet), target score sheets, test score sheets, copy of CHL-100s, and class program for that day. She will also want to see any paperwork that you have sent to DPS (asking students leave class because of unsafe range behavior, etc.). She will check your class program to make sur you are teaching the mandated courses (we showed her some of our power point and she was happy with that). We had to sign a form saying that we were audited that day and she said that we would be getting an copy sent back to each of us. She told us that the DPS was starting to inspect all the CHL instructors and that they might start doing it each year.
Haven't heard that black is not accepted.... we were told in Jan class that it is black and blue like a bruise, and red and green like a Christmas tree. Anything documented on this?

The auditor was wrong as of what we were told in the the last class taught. That needs to be corrected in the audits. They are still a B-27 target in one of four colors; black, blue, red or green.

clarionite wrote:
Keith B wrote:
Part of my flight review every two years is being quizzed on procedural matters. No different.
My wife has inspections at her job at least twice a year by a state agency (Not DPS related at all). Once announced, once unannounced. I've heard her complain about all the extra work her job seems to have her do before the announced visit, because she feels it's something that should be maintained throughout the year. But don't think I've ever heard her complain that she's got her certification, why do they have to quiz her again... Seems like a strange concept to me.

Rules and regs change and as a CHL instructor (and just a CHL holder for that matter) you are required to keep up to date and know the them. A good example are those instructors that are teaching churches and hospitals are off limits period, even without a 30.06. This isn't just teaching pistol safety which basically doesn't change, it is teaching the law and the statutes. If you are teaching it incorrectly then you are not doing the student, yourself or the state justice.

wgoforth wrote:And it is possible...but it is the quizzing part that I am more displeased withI don't know of other certs where they come back and, as she said "quizz you over procedural matters you should already know." I told her that I cannot be sure I can answer, that's why I have note and instructions.

Part of my flight review every two years is being quizzed on procedural matters. No different.

wgoforth wrote:I don't see this as a comparison to a driver's license at all. You took your driving test, you obey laws in driving. Similarly, you took your instructors class and test, you obey laws in teaching.... now someone wants to come and quizz you again. What if someone said they wanted to come and re-quizz you over your driver's license? Keep in mind that besides seeing our certs and forms, Deidra Neely said we will be quizzed on procedural matters. I can understand doing this if there has been a complaint or there is a question about someones CHL-100, but this seems to me to be a waste of resources...theirs and mine.
I will comply, I have no option. But I aint liking this a bit and am calling legislsature to complain about wasting money.

As TexasGal says, this is very common practice with certifications. I have various ones that I have to kep records on and get audited periodically. A good example is as an LTA flight instructor I have to keep trinaing records of students I teach and have them available for the FAA if they request them. And, just having my pilots license requires that I take a flight review every 24 months. I have to just keep regular logs on flights and any aircraft maintenance to show to any FAA inspector if they requyest them. I have actually had them show up out of the blue when they saw me flying and requested to see them when I landed. Luckily I had them with me (not required) so I didn't have to follow up with them later.

So, in my best Old English 'Me thinks thou doth protest too much'.

I wouldn't sweat this at all. As long as you are following the rules and doing what you are supposed to do, you should be good to go!!

wgoforth wrote:
mommagamber wrote:I am currently in the Instructors Class and Thy discussed what we need to keep and what the Auditor will be looking for. Some of you have such bad information. Texas Gal you go girl!
Did they also say we would be verbally quizzed about procedural matters? I was told that by Diedra Neely on the phone Fri, who is over regulatory services.

My understanding is they may possibly review your course outline and teaching materials to make sure you are teaching the 'four food groups' and have the bases covered on what your should be teaching.

sjfcontrol wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:
wgoforth wrote:Are we saying that when this auditor comes out, they want to see scores?? What then if we have not recorded any?
No. In one of my renewal classes, Star specifically said not to keep test answer sheets. The instructor's copy of the CHL-100 documents the student's having passed the exam and/or proficiency portion of the class.

Chas.
But this is coming from "Regulatory Services", not DPS. And even DPS contradicts what DPS says in the classes. (e.g., whether stamped/electronic signatures are acceptable.) So are we really supposed to believe that a different agency will get it right? Or that DPS has it right, for that matter?

They have told you (and multiple others) that scores are not to be kept, so all you need is the pass/fail. If an auditor challenges that, then they can go back to those in DPS and get clarificaiton. Easy enough.

sjfcontrol wrote:
bmcferren wrote:I'm sorry that I continue to stay on this one topic ... WHEN is this new regulatory division going to begin to communicate with all of the instructors around the state? I've been an instructor for 12 years and the amount of DIS-INFORMATION coming out is absolutely amazing. The course of instruction has been modified, videos have been added (that may or may not be used during class), rules are constantly changing and are not being relayed to ALL instructors and so many more issues and all of this seems to point to the changes that were made within the department. All of the above and the division wishes to audit the instructor as if WE are the ones mis-using the system. I'm so glad to have this forum to at least receive a small amount of information from that seems to have been verified.
Bill
I tend to agree. Reading the paper posted above is frightening. Did ANYBODY think it was necessary to record and keep the actual scores for the written and proficiency tests? **ANYBODY**???

We were told in class that you don't have to any longer. Just pass/fail recorded on the CHL-100 and CHL-8 for each student.

sjfcontrol wrote:
Keith B wrote:The thing everyone needs to know is that different interpretations of the law is ALWAYS a possibility. There is a chance that you may need to challenge an interpretation that is different than your own if you get into a situation of having alcohol in your system while carrying or passing a questionable or totally incorrect 30.06 sign.
Keith -- out of curiosity, are you referring to challenging on the spot? Or after the fact through legal action?

Yes

JustMe wrote:
Hector wrote:Considering all of the confusion by new instructors about alcohol and valid 30.06 notice, maybe Regulatory Services should audit the instructor classes DPS teaches. If they get their own house in order first, maybe there will be less problems down the road.
I was just in the May class--there was NO confusion. Maybe they are trying to get their house in order--by straitening out old time instructors who are teaching outdated information

What is being taught is correct. The statutes are covered and real world possibilities are covered. The thing everyone needs to know is that different interpretations of the law is ALWAYS a possibility. There is a chance that you may need to challenge an interpretation that is different than your own if you get into a situation of having alcohol in your system while carrying or passing a questionable or totally incorrect 30.06 sign.

sjfcontrol wrote:I seem to remember that the CHL-100's needed to be kept for 5-years.
I see in the Instructors class-notes that it's 3-years.
I can't find any mention of record retention in the CHL-16.

Everybody agree that the CHL-100/8 retention period is 3-years?

One wonders why (other than 'because we said so') we need to keep these records at all. DPS has the original CHL-100 sent in by the students. And they can verify their validity by comparing with the appropriate CHL-8's sent in by the instructors. The only reason for US to keep copies, as far as I can tell, is in case DPS loses their copies.

At most, seems silly to have to keep the copies for longer than the originals are valid for anyway.

3 years.

And, the one issue is in case there is question that someone possibly modified their CHL-100 between the class and sending it to DPS, such as changing NSA to SA, didn't really complete the range time with original instructor, but penciled it in later, etc. They are processing about 13,000 CHL's month down there, so that is a lot of paperwork to go through. If they do an internal check of their records 6 months, a year or 2.99 years later, see something that looks suspicious, they can come back and ask you to look at the original.

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