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Thanks Steve. I suspected that was your thought. I am not real familiar with the Kurtz case, but may need to check it out since I live just a couple of blocks from the Plano/Frisco border.

So Steve, because I do think this is relevant to the thread, please expand a little more on your statement of police needing probable cause. The reason I ask is that a Terry Stop to detain is based solely on reasonable suspicion (i.e. something harder than I had a hunch or gut feeling) and probable cause is needed for arrest.

I may know your thinking on this, that a traffic stop in your opinion is an arrest, so you need probable cause, but just want to see where you are headed with this.

LEO's don't need probable cause to make a stop, just reasonable suspicion. Like the name says, that can be in any form that would be 'reasonable'. Time of night, report of suspicious motorcycle, etc., etc. They then need probable cause to initiate an arrest.