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Terlingueno wrote:I am very disappointed with TABC, having filed several written complaints about the Starlight Theater in Terlingua displaying a 51% sign when in fact, according to the TABC website, should be a "Blue", Unlicensed Possession sign. Anyone know what the next step should be? The management of that establishment knows they have the wrong sign, but refuse to comply. Oh well.

Did you get a confirmation from TABC stating they went and talked to the business? if not, I would contact the local field office over Terlingua and talk to someone about the issue they they have the wrong sign up.

ScottDLS wrote:
A TABC blue notice or a 51% sign would hardly seem to qualify as notice. I don’t see anything in them prohibiting your entry. The are simply making note of the law regarding handguns. Weapon has a specific definition in PC chapter 46 and it doesn’t include long guns.

TPC 1.07 defines deadly weapon

(17) "Deadly weapon" means:

(A) a firearm or anything manifestly designed, made, or adapted for the purpose of inflicting death or serious bodily injury; or

(B) anything that in the manner of its use or intended use is capable of causing death or serious bodily injury.

So, it is in the general provisions and would apply to TPC 30.05 on notice. I believe that it is notice that entry is forbidden with a weapon.

At this point, I am done with this topic and stand by my position until a court or AG decision shows differently.

Nutcracker wrote:Thank you for demonstrating my point that Texas DPS and LTC Instructors don't always teach the actual law.

I didn't.

bigtek wrote:
Keith B wrote:
spectre wrote:The signs don't say weapons aren't allowed. They say the unlicensed possession of a weapon is a felony.

Obviously, the signs don't apply to an AR15, a Kershaw Blur, or a small OC canister. Why? Because carrying those weapons in that location isn't a felony.

P.S. I'm in Texas.
A rifle (firearm) is an unlicensed weapon, as is a Kershaw Blur (knife). A small OC canister is not a weapon as it is specifically exempted in TPC 46.01(14):
(14) "Chemical dispensing device" means a device, other than a small chemical dispenser sold commercially for personal protection, that is designed, made, or adapted for the purpose of dispensing a substance capable of causing an adverse psychological or physiological effect on a human being.
And while not a felony, the sign is notice that (unlicensed) weapons are not allowed, so it is a violation of 30.05 and a misdemeanor. Don't care what the sign states the penalty is, as that does not make the sign invalid as there is no legally defined specific verbiage requirements for the TABC signs, just a general requirement.
It sounds like you're saying it's illegal to have a Kershaw Blur or a similar pocket knife at HEB if they sell beer and wine and post a TABC blue sign. I don't think that's correct.

I am saying it is a 30.05 violation if the sign says 'weapon'. if it says 'handgun', then it would not be a violation.

ScottDLS wrote:
Keith B wrote:
Nutcracker wrote:
Whether they really are 51% or not, the TABC license determines if it's legal for the good guys to carry there. Well, legal to carry handguns, since carrying a rifle or a shotgun is not a crime in 51% establishments. So that's what I do.
I sure hope you are not carrying a rifle or shotgun into a 51% location, as that is a felony to carry a weapon (not handgun) into one.

Also, carrying an unlicensed weapon, meaning one that you can't get a license to carry (handgun), in a non-51% location is also a felony per TABC, but really it's a crime if they allow you to stay on premise with one.

No actually it’s not illegal to carry a concealed rifle into a 51% location. It’s against tabc rules for the bar, but not illegal.

If there is notice, then it would be a 30,05 violation.

spectre wrote:The signs don't say weapons aren't allowed. They say the unlicensed possession of a weapon is a felony.

Obviously, the signs don't apply to an AR15, a Kershaw Blur, or a small OC canister. Why? Because carrying those weapons in that location isn't a felony.

P.S. I'm in Texas.

A rifle (firearm) is an unlicensed weapon, as is a Kershaw Blur (knife). A small OC canister is not a weapon as it is specifically exempted in TPC 46.01(14):

(14) "Chemical dispensing device" means a device, other than a small chemical dispenser sold commercially for personal protection, that is designed, made, or adapted for the purpose of dispensing a substance capable of causing an adverse psychological or physiological effect on a human being.

And while not a felony, the sign is notice that (unlicensed) weapons are not allowed, so it is a violation of 30.05 and a misdemeanor. Don't care what the sign states the penalty is, as that does not make the sign invalid as there is no legally defined specific verbiage requirements for the TABC signs, just a general requirement.

spectre wrote:
Keith B wrote: Well, I do:

Section 46 of the penal code does not cover anything but a handgun when it comes to firearms being carried into an establishment that sells or serves alcohol. However, you are in violation of penal code 30.05

Sec. 30.05. CRIMINAL TRESPASS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person enters or remains on or in property of another, including residential land, agricultural land, a recreational vehicle park, a building, or an aircraft or other vehicle, without effective consent and the person:
(1) had notice that the entry was forbidden; or
(2) received notice to depart but failed to do so.
..........
(3) a Class A misdemeanor if:
..........
(C) the person carries a deadly weapon during the commission of the offense.
So, I stand partially corrected that it is not a felony, but is a Class A misdemeanor, to carry into the location with the signs present stating no weapons.
I don't follow how it's a misdemeanor to have a rifle in a 51% location.

The signs don't say weapons are prohibited there. They say the unlicensed possession of a weapon is a felony. However, it's NOT a felony to carry a rifle there. So either the signs don't apply to riflemen, or the sign is a lie. Either way, the signs aren't notice that entry with a rifle is prohibited, so 30.05 doesn't apply.

Well, there are two different versions of the 51% sign. One says weapon and one says handgun. If handgun, then no offense unless you are notified to leave with your rifle, then you are in violation of 30.05. The Unlicensed possession sign says weapon.

If the sign says weapon, then see my post above. 30.05 says if you received notice via the sign that weapons were not allowed (whether is says felony or not), then you are in violation by carrying a deadly weapon (defined in TPC 1.07(17)(A) http://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/ ... -1-07.html) past the sign. That is a class A misdemeanor.

Nutcracker wrote:
Keith B wrote:
Nutcracker wrote:
Whether they really are 51% or not, the TABC license determines if it's legal for the good guys to carry there. Well, legal to carry handguns, since carrying a rifle or a shotgun is not a crime in 51% establishments. So that's what I do.
I sure hope you are not carrying a rifle or shotgun into a 51% location, as that is a felony to carry a weapon (not handgun) into one.
Where does the penal code say that? Please quote chapter and verse of an actual law. Recent posts on this forum show Texas DPS and LTC Instructors don't always teach the actual law.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Well, I do:

Section 46 of the penal code does not cover anything but a handgun when it comes to firearms being carried into an establishment that sells or serves alcohol. However, you are in violation of penal code 30.05

Sec. 30.05. CRIMINAL TRESPASS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person enters or remains on or in property of another, including residential land, agricultural land, a recreational vehicle park, a building, or an aircraft or other vehicle, without effective consent and the person:
(1) had notice that the entry was forbidden; or
(2) received notice to depart but failed to do so.
..........
(3) a Class A misdemeanor if:
..........
(C) the person carries a deadly weapon during the commission of the offense.

So, I stand partially corrected that it is not a felony, but is a Class A misdemeanor, to carry into the location with the signs present stating no weapons.

Nutcracker wrote:
Whether they really are 51% or not, the TABC license determines if it's legal for the good guys to carry there. Well, legal to carry handguns, since carrying a rifle or a shotgun is not a crime in 51% establishments. So that's what I do.

I sure hope you are not carrying a rifle or shotgun into a 51% location, as that is a felony to carry a weapon (not handgun) into one.

Also, carrying an unlicensed weapon, meaning one that you can't get a license to carry (handgun), in a non-51% location is also a felony per TABC, but really it's a crime if they allow you to stay on premise with one.

Strongbad wrote:
Scott in Houston wrote:I've found almost no places that have tables to serve food to be 51%. LIterally, over the last 12 years of carrying, I look all the time and if they serve food as a restaurant, they're not 51%. Even a lot of places that you'd think would bel because they focus on alcohol like BJ's Brewery, etc.

One exception is The Flying Saucer. They have tables and serve food, but are 51%.

The iPhone App is very handy.
Breastaurants are often 51%. Ojos Locos and Redneck Heaven for example are both red sign establishments. I dunno if I believe it but according to the TABC site they are.

It all depends on the location. A couple of the Redneck Heaven locations are red, and the other two are blue. TABC bases their requirement on actual sales receipts, so if a business is right on the border of 50/50 food/alcohol, then one location could tip the scales one way while another may slide the other.

1911 10MM wrote:I don't understand some of the requirements. Dirty Jobs Brewery in Downtown Mansfield, Texas is a new Brewery but sells for onsite consumption. I went in there unarmed because I was positive it was a 51% location as they serve no food only beer they brew. When I looked at the TABC app they show a no on red gun sign. How can this be? My receipt for beer purchased there shows Dirty Job Brewery. I didn't look for a blue or red sign as I was positive it was 51%.

As a brewery, they probably make more than 51% of there sales for off-site consumption. The on-site is not where they make there money apparently.

texasjeep44 wrote:The business is required to post signs if they are a 51% establishment.

Sec. 104.06. MONITORING OF GROSS RECEIPTS. (a) On the issuance and renewal of a license or permit that allows on-premises consumption of any alcoholic beverage the commission shall determine whether the holder receives, or for the issuance of a license or permit is to receive, 51 percent or more of the gross receipts of the premises for which the license or permit is issued from the holder's sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption.
(b) The commission shall:
(1) adopt rules for making a determination under Subsection (a); and
(2) require a holder of a license or permit to provide any information or document that the commission needs to make a determination.
(c) If the commission makes a determination under Subsection (a) that a holder of a license or permit receives 51 percent or more of the gross receipts of the premises from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages, the holder shall comply with the requirements of Section 411.204, Government Code, and shall continue to comply with those requirements until the commission determines that the holder receives less than 51 percent of the gross receipts of the premises from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption.

Sec. 411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES. (a) A business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, and that derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the business premises a sign that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c).
You have a defense if they do not post the correct signage. It is on page 42 of your CHL handbook.

(k) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (b)(1) that the
actor was not given effective notice under Section 411.204, Government
Code.
So if there is no big red 51% signage on the door or hanging at the bar, your good to go for carrying.

While you are technically correct, one thing to remember is this is a 'defense to prosecution', but not a guarantee you won't be prosecuted. For example, if the prosecutor can convince the Judge or Jury that you well knew it was a 51% location when you entered, even without the sign, then you could be in hot water and be convicted of carrying in a 51% establishment.

So, I would still be very cautious if you suspicion an establishment is 51% even without the sign unless you have proof it is not.

Hooters are NOT 51% locations. This is confirmed by the TABC database by searching on the name Hooters. All locations in Texas show to have an FB (Food and Beverage) license in the subordinates field. Having a FB license means they are not 51%. That is the only way you can tell on the website. If a location doesn't have this entry, then the only other methods are call the TABC and inquire, or go to the location and look at their physical license and see if it says SIGN=RED or SIGN=BLUE. Red is 51%, Blue is <51%. They should also have one of the two signs posted conspicuously per the TABC rules, but as you can see, that doesn't always get done.

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