TexasCHLforum.com

glbedd53 wrote:I think Keith make realistic points, not necessarily good ones.

They are good points, just not ones open carry proponents want to hear.

Conagher wrote: Well, I was really hoping more folks would jump in to be part of a solution.

Keith B, mr surveyor, and frazzled: Not to put you on the spot, but I was really hoping for a response from you folks. With your experience, knowledge and your typical level-headed responses I’m guessing you would have some great ideas on how we could began working up a resolution to this impediment of freedom. What do you say; want to give it a shot?

Others please join in as well.

Thanks and Have a Nice Day!

Well, as much as it would be nice to have open carry capability, I personally don't see it happening. As stated before, trying to get a state to reverse a law is VERY tough and my thoughts are the compromises that would be required to get ANY form of open carry would cause damage to concealed carry laws.

There is one potential option for a start, and that might be to try and get open carry in unincorporated areas, i.e. not in the city limits. This would allow those that live in rural areas an option to not have to cover. By starting small and out in the areas where there are no big businesses, you start training the populace that just because someone has a gun on their hip doesn't make them a bad person.

IMO any advancement toward getting open carry is going to be slow at best. And, after last year's debacle with some of the antagonistic methods a few supporters used, you are going to meet with a lot of resistance from legislators. You are going to have to try and get them to eat the elephant one bite at a time and it is going to take a lot of tenderizing and chewing to get anyone to swallow the bite and not choke.

Open carry has been outlawed since the late 1800's and they were concerned about gun fights in town. While a lot of people believe the movies and that cowboys wandered around town with their six-shooters on their hips back then, but most towns required you to turn in your guns when you entered, and retrieve them when you left.

frazzled wrote: We should note here, how many Texans actually know about CHL laws? There's an assumption here that people even know about that, which may be highly inaccurate. Most of my friends have CHLs, but of the families we know that don't, I 'd bet good money they aren't even aware CHL exists.

Exactly. That is why you don't see many 30.06 signs. Most merchants and their employees are totally unaware that CHL's are walking into their businesses because they don't see the gun. While some may put up no-gun or gun-buster signs, they really don't even know how to legally prohibit them and don't research it because of the out of sight, out of mind mentality. When the first person who is open carrying walks in, it will be Katie bar the door and they will be figuring out how to keep them from entering. Gut feeling is that 30.06 would be the method required and then open carry AND CHL's would be no-go.

PappaGun wrote:
mr surveyor wrote: ..Once a few open carried handguns start showing up on the properties of many of these businesses, the owners will actively seek a remedy, and WILL post their properties. That is a fact!...

surv
I don't agree.

Now don't get me wrong. I don't necessarily disagree.
But this has not been my experience.
In my last State of residence, an OC State, there were not many posted locations.
And in my travels to other OC States, I don't see any more posted locations than I do in Texas.

A couple of questions:
1. Did your state allow cities to put ordinances in place to ban open carry? (City preemption of state law)
2. How many times did you see people actually open carrying in town and in businesses like Wal-Mart and Denny's?

The reason I ask is I lived for 38 years in an open carry state. I can remember 2 times seeing someone actually open carrying. One I had to ask to leave the store when they called the police about a man with a gun walking around their grocery store and I responded (was a LEO then.) The other was when we had a Dallas Days festival and we had 2 or 3 folks with real single action cowboy style pistols on tier belts. However, I do know that they were not loaded as I asked them.

And while you don't see postings, I believe it is because people DON'T regularly open carry in towns, even where it is legal in these states. HOWEVER, if it were to pass in Texas, because it would be something new and unique, everyone and their dog would decide 'Hey, I can strap on my six-shooter and wander around Home Depot'. This would bring so much attention to the new law that businesses would THEN start posting. Now, in rural areas, it might be different, but your urban areas just wouldn't stand for this happing and 30.06 signs would pop up faster than a prairie dog pops in and out out of his hole.

ScottDLS wrote:
Keith B wrote:Open carry has been on the forum numerous times. You will find as many against it as for it.

Bottom line, the chance of open carry ever passing in Texas is slim to none, and slim left town. Some of the open carry supporters last session tried shoving their agendas down the legislators throats and alienated the ones that they might have had a chance getting the legislation introduced with. I think finding anyone to support introduction of legislation in future sessions is now going to be extremely difficult. Most will not touch with a 10 foot pole now.

Besides the hurdles of just getting someone to introduce it, the fact that it is illegal now will make it that much more difficult to get repealed. The states that currently have open carry have always had it, so it never had to be reversed. If by some chance it did get overturned, there would be a LOT of restrictions on it. Most open carry states allow cities to preempt the state law and not allow open carry in their town. That would mean you might be able to open carry in Richardson, but when you crossed the city limit line into Plano, you would suddenly be illegal. Also, they would more than likely make businesses post 30.06 signs to prohibit open carry. Since it would be such a widely publicized thing in the media, you would see businesses throwing up signs right and left. This would then ban ALL carry in the stores.

So, while it might sound like a great deal to get open carry, think about the ramifications and fallout that would come from it. It would NOT be pretty.
Keith - I have to respectfully disagree with you on few points.
-----
Before that, let me say that I believe that Texas CHL Forum is primarily aimed at "Concealed" Carry and if I understand correctly, Mr. Charles L. Cotton has mainly focused his efforts on improving "concealed" carry laws in Texas. I respect that, and frankly few people, rise to his level of advocacy and support for "carry" rights. I'll support Chas., TSRA, NRA, etc. any day! If we don't want to have open carry discussion here, I can live with that.

-----
There is no problem having another open carry discussion, it is just that there have been numerous ones over the years and they still all end up with folks disagreeing and no new information being passed.

ScottDLS wrote:
Keith B wrote:Most open carry states allow cities to preempt the state law and not allow open carry in their town. That would mean you might be able to open carry in Richardson, but when you crossed the city limit line into Plano, you would suddenly be illegal. Also, they would more than likely make businesses post 30.06 signs to prohibit open carry.
I dispute this. Most states have statewide pre-emption. Texas does, though OC is (generally) illegal here. Why would it change if Texas allowed licensed (or unlicensed) OC? New Hampshire has statewide pre-emption. Pennsylvania does, although some question of City of Philadelphia. New York State does, with the specific statutory exception of the 5 boroughs of NYC. California has statewide preemption. If you're lucky enough to get a carry license there, even San Fransisco can't bust you. Anyway, my point is that I don't think OC risks changing our statewide preemption.

As a side note... this why I don't agree with people that say we should have "Vermont style" carry. In Vermont there is no statewide pre-emption, though there is no state law against carrying concealed or open. I understand few cities have passed ordinances against carry, but they could. Also since no state carry law, no NICS check exemption and no reciprocity. I like Alaska style carry. They have a CHL, but no state law against unlicensed carry. And I believe...statewide preemption for licensees....

You will see that open carry would be a VERY hot topic, and while the 'out of sight, out of mind' plays into concealed carry, this would draw a LOT of attention from the cities. We have seen how much the legislature throws out compromise on things to get it passed, and I will bet you a dollar to a donut that they would allow the cities to preempt state law if open carry was to get passed.

ScottDLS wrote:
Keith B wrote:Also, they would more than likely make businesses post 30.06 signs to prohibit open carry. Since it would be such a widely publicized thing in the media, you would see businesses throwing up signs right and left. This would then ban ALL carry in the stores.
Who would make stores post more 30.06? The cities? See statewide preemption. Perhaps with more open carry, more stores would learn to post the correct statutory proscription on "carry". Let's just assume that legislature extended 30.06 as-is to open carry. But frankly I doubt it. We've had 30.06 since 1997 and I can count on my hands the number of correctly posted places I've seen. What I DO think more stores would do is verbally(ok, ORALLY!) notify OC'ers to leave. Perfect opportunity to exercise your right to conceal and carry (before notification).

I really think the added media attention and high profile publicity that a bill to pass open carry would get will cause the owners who today have the 'out of sight, out of mind' view today to start posting in a manner to keep guns out of their businesses. I really think the amount of compromise that would be thrown in for open carry to pass (city preemption, 30.06 extended to open carry, etc.) might get the bill passed, but in turn would potentially hurt concealed carry options.

So, we will just have to agree to disagree since neither of us is Nostradamus or fortune tellers and can't accurately predict the future.

cbr600 wrote:
davidtx wrote:Would anybody on the forum that has lived in an OC state care to share their experience?
I moved here from North Carolina, an unlicensed open carry state. I saw people carry openly and never saw any problems.

Can you give some examples of locations you saw them carrying openly? Was that out in the country or in town and in the mall?

Also, NC has some unusual CHL restrictions, like not being able to carry into any place that you have to buy a ticket, so movie theaters and carnivals are off limits. Why would they have that strict a restriction if they are pro open carry?

Open carry has been

on the forum numerous times. You will find as many against it as for it.

Bottom line, the chance of open carry ever passing in Texas is slim to none, and slim left town. Some of the open carry supporters last session tried shoving their agendas down the legislators throats and alienated the ones that they might have had a chance getting the legislation introduced with. I think finding anyone to support introduction of legislation in future sessions is now going to be extremely difficult. Most will not touch with a 10 foot pole now.

Besides the hurdles of just getting someone to introduce it, the fact that it is illegal now will make it that much more difficult to get repealed. The states that currently have open carry have always had it, so it never had to be reversed. If by some chance it did get overturned, there would be a LOT of restrictions on it. Most open carry states allow cities to preempt the state law and not allow open carry in their town. That would mean you might be able to open carry in Richardson, but when you crossed the city limit line into Plano, you would suddenly be illegal. Also, they would more than likely make businesses post 30.06 signs to prohibit open carry. Since it would be such a widely publicized thing in the media, you would see businesses throwing up signs right and left. This would then ban ALL carry in the stores.

So, while it might sound like a great deal to get open carry, think about the ramifications and fallout that would come from it. It would NOT be pretty.

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