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WildBill wrote:

AndyC wrote:

apvonkanel wrote:It's not just the JHP creates a bigger wound cavity, it's that the JHP transfers a greater amount of velocity to the object (pushing the person back more)

Sorry, but that's nonsense, even if you were referring to energy and not velocity. Why do you even care how much velocity is left? If I hit you with a cannonball and it goes right through you, am I really going to complain that most of its energy was wasted? As much as I'm a Scot and we're notoriously cheap, we're talking about effectiveness - not efficiency.

Many people get confused about bullets pushing people back. Too many movies and TV shows IMO.

A) I used improper terminology. Okay.
B) I'm looking at force of impact. If we were shooting cannonballs your argument would be perfectly sensible and valid. Considering we're talking about much smaller projectiles (unless you happen to be using a cannon, at which point I would say kudos to you) that often require a second or even third shot, I'd say it would be best if we talk about that. A hole jabbed through a person doesn't stop them nearly as quickly as a cavity that pushes them back. I'm not concerned about wasted energy, I'm concerned about total energy transferred. Energy transference plays a large part in stopping a charging attacker. A shot to kevlar can knock a man down or around, because practically all energy is transferred to the target. If your first shot is guaranteed to end the threat it becomes irrelevant, but in any other situation the amount of energy transferred to the target definitely plays a vital role.

AndyC wrote:

apvonkanel wrote:It's not just the JHP creates a bigger wound cavity, it's that the JHP transfers a greater amount of velocity to the object (pushing the person back more)

Sorry, but that's nonsense, even if you were referring to energy and not velocity. Why do you even care how much velocity is left? If I hit you with a cannonball and it goes right through you, am I really going to complain that most of its energy was wasted? As much as I'm a Scot and we're notoriously cheap, we're talking about effectiveness - not efficiency.

A) I used improper terminology. Okay.
B) I'm looking at force of impact. If we were shooting cannonballs your argument would be perfectly sensible and valid. Considering we're talking about much smaller projectiles (unless you happen to be using a cannon, at which point I would say kudos to you) that often require a second or even third shot, I'd say it would be best if we talk about that. A hole jabbed through a person doesn't stop them nearly as quickly as a cavity that pushes them back. I'm not concerned about wasted energy, I'm concerned about total energy transferred. Energy transference plays a large part in stopping a charging attacker. A shot in kevlar can knock a man down, because practically all energy is transferred to the target. If your first shot is guaranteed to end the threat it becomes irrelevant, but in any other situation the amount of energy transferred to the target definitely plays a vital role.

Jusme wrote:

Pawpaw wrote:

apvonkanel wrote:Something I don't see addressed is human penetration AFTER sheet rock. Yes, it will penetrate the sheet rock. Will it penetrate flesh after that though? Does the sheet rock reduce the velocity enough to reduce harm?

I would be even more interested in seeing a test where walls are shot at a 45° angle instead of 90 ° There is a very slim chance you'll be shooting at a bad guy square on to your interior walls.

It might not have very much effect on buckshot or a pistol bullet, but I bet it would have a dramatic effect on a 55 gr. .223.

I think it would have a great effect on anything. Think about it like this, you can punch through a 1/2" piece of drywall straight on, but try to punch the same piece on the edge. While the mechanics are slightly different, any projectile striking the drywall at an angle, will meet much more resistance from the drywall, because it will have to traverse further through it. The projectile will then have to penetrate another piece of drywall at the same angle, or be deflected back into the interior of the wall. Even if it penetrates the second sheet it's expended energy will cause it slow much more rapidly. Additionally, the odds are much better that the projectile will strike a wall stud when fired at an angle.

This is strictly speculation, since I haven't actually tested it, nor have I seen any test performed in this manner.

Not just because of the amount of materiel to go through, but we also have to look at the simple aspect of angle-of-impact. Transference of power, deflecting vs. stopping, or in this case even stopping something that's been deflected. It's the same principal of stopping power in a JHP vs. FMJ. It's not just the JHP creates a bigger wound cavity, it's that the JHP transfers a greater amount of velocity to the object (pushing the person back more), where a FMJ might fully penetrate, passing through (leaving the person with a in and out tunnel, keeping them in the same place) and keep some of its velocity.

Something I don't see addressed is human penetration AFTER sheet rock. Yes, it will penetrate the sheet rock. Will it penetrate flesh after that though? Does the sheet rock reduce the velocity enough to reduce harm?
That being said, I still prefer my M&P with Federal HST because my aim and response time with a pistol is far superior. I've always been clumsy and random with a shotgun. Now if I could get a functioning lightsaber...