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OCH wrote:What could you have done if this situation went south?
(A) You could have ended up in the morgue.
(B) You could have ended up in the hospital.
(C) You could have ended up in jail.
(D) B and C

Cedar Park Dad wrote:Not saying you're a bad guy. I am saying: 1) it might not be the best idea to investigate something in the dark (Too many variables); 2) being ready to blast someone because they are on your properety is not necessarily going to cut it in front of a jury.

1.) While true, it still might be the correct action depending on PD response time. If I call PD because there is someone rooting around in my shed and I know from past experience that it is going to take them an hour plus, I am going out there with a flashlight and a gun. It wouldn't be my first choice of action, but you gotta do what ya gotta do.

2.) The OP stated "I was armed with nothing but a 4" Gerber fixed blade that I had on my belt. My buddy, the driver, was just standing there, arms crossed, with apparently no intent to make it known that we meant no harm." If the body language was there to make me fear from my safety, that is gonna cut it with a grand jury.

Bottom like is this, the OP was in the wrong on several occasions. Farmer Bob wasn't. The OP shouldn't have put himself in several of the positions he was in, Farmer Bob reacted accordingly.

I still haven't got an answer as to if Farmer Bob told them to leave at any point. Any variation of a phrase that suggests they go elsewhere is sufficient to bring Criminal Trespass into play. Had that happened, the OP would have been the bad guy for all intents and purposes.

bigity wrote:I hope some of you folks never need assistance when you are out in the sticks. Because you just might get the same treatment you are advocating.

So because I understand why the homeowner was guarded when a stranger was on his property after dark in the middle of nowhere I am the bad guy?

Cedar Park Dad wrote:

killerfly128 wrote:

Rrash wrote:Who knows what Bob was thinking.

Who knows what kind of trouble Bob has had to deal with in the past.

Not seeing how walking out into the dark is a smart move for Farmer Bob (aka "the Bobster").

If there was a threat and he know he was looking at a hour plus of response time the police might not be a viable option in his mind. I never said it was the right thing to do, just that it might be more effective than waiting on PD to save the day.

Rrash wrote:Who knows what Bob was thinking.

Who knows what kind of trouble Bob has had to deal with in the past.

Rrash wrote: That being said, "Farmer Bob" probably should have stayed in his home and called the police himself.

[devil's advocate] If ''Farmer Bob'' is far enough out in the sticks the response time might be so great that being proactive is more effictive than waiting on PD. [\devil's advocate]

proheath wrote:killerfly, I'm going to cease response to the topic of law vs moral as I don't feel I am being understood correctly.

Just know that my piece will not leave its resting place on my side until my life or a loved one's life is at stake. At which point, weapon's hot and someone's about to be perforated, regardless of any possible consequences. Would I much rather it be crystal clear to all following investigations that I was 100% in the right? You betcha. However, I'd rather spend the rest of my life in a federal prison knowing that me and my loved ones are still alive and well than to lose them because by defending them and myself, my actions were not legally justified.

Fair enough. Your initial responses came off with a tone that is very indicative of a new CHLer with limited life experience. It is a viewpoint I run into alarmingly often with younger CHLers (mind you at 30 I am still a baby compared to some of the folks here). Your last post was more clear and I can understand that thought process although my family and myself are the only ones I would consider stepping over a potential line for. Everyone else I will do my darnedest to ensure I am well within the law.

Cedar Park Dad wrote:Now here's a follow up. If he's on their property, would it be better to stay in the truck or physically walk off their property and stay in the road? Recommendations?

Stay in the truck with the motor off, window cracked, interior light on, and call the police as soon as you see a weapon. As long as you are polite and show you are not a threat you should be able to defuse the situation without being any threat because your flashers are on, he can see your hands, and you are not able to take an aggressive posture. If the truck HAD to be parked on dude's property, this is how i would have gone about it. Personally I would have left a note on the dash, and under the wiper or on the drivers window and left. Trying to leave a note on the house was a poor decision I think.

proheath wrote:

killerfly128 wrote:Sigh.
I am not trying to bring you down, but you need to hear what I am saying. Please think about it not only for your sake, but for the people in your life's sake as well as fellow CHL holders.

I hear you, loud and clear.

Look, the law does what it can to protect the interest of the good guy, but not 100% of the time. My morals protect the interest of myself and fellow man (the good guys) 100% of the time.

I read a story not long ago about a doctor that worked in a hospital with 30.06 signage (or similar legal signage in a different jurisdiction)
He was in fact illegally carrying a handgun. An active shooter became present in the facility, and the doctor drew and fired, saving who knows how many lives.

This situation here is exactly what I mean. Should the guy have been carrying? Well, maybe not, but thank God he was.

Maybe I worded my point poorly, but this is what it meant.

*I will try to find the source of this story if anyone is interested.

That is incredibly different. I don't look down on someone that rolls with the "concealed is concealed" mantra. I can get behind that thought process. While I want to protect the interest of my fellow man, my fellow man's interests are not worth my freedom. Mine and my families are.

proheath wrote:

killerfly128 wrote:I wasn't very clear as to if you were on his property or on a sidewalk/public road during your interaction. If I am reading it right you had pulled onto his property.

This is debatable. The gravel driveway went all the way out to the county road. Where county property ends and his property began is unclear. It was near the edge of both. The grassy shoulder off of the actual road was moreso a ditch than a shoulder. Where the shoulder met this man's driveway, it was much more level ground.

Still an unnecessary risk IMO. In the city it wouldn't really be much issue but in the country things change, property lines are kind of ambiguous. You made it seem as though you knew you pulled onto his property. Regardless of where the car was you did say that you were walking up to the house. Did he at any point ask or tell you to leave?

Cedar Park Dad wrote:Wo wo but correct me if I am wrong here but:
1. He wasn't CHLing (aka he was obeying the letter and intent of the law).
2. He tried to act appropriately in an unusual situation and his actions were attempts to diffuse the situation.
3. Now that the situation has passed he's asking for advice.

Legally he is fully justified to defend himself. He has made no criminal action whatsover. Farmer Bob coming out and drawing on the poster would have been the one committing a felony, not him.

1.)No, he wasn't carrying. I was making the remark that I understand "Farmer Bob's" response. I would have taken the same super defensive approach to a stranger parking their car on my property after dark when I am sleeping. I did say that I would have been less of a jerk about inquiring why they were on my property.

2.)While I kind of agree with you here I feel like some of the clues in the original post make me think that the body language used when interacting with the landowner might have created more tension than intended. This is why I was stressing using your most powerful weapon (the mind). I personally thing the entire situation could have been handled much differently on the part of the original poster and the other occupants of the car. First big mistake was parking on someones land without permission in a self described sketchy area. (unless I miss-read that as well)

3.) I gathered, thus my post. I think I addressed all the points he was looking for advice on.

Legally yes, he is justified to defend himself as long as he is not breaking the law. Had the homeowner told them to leave at any point (it wasn't mentioned, but if the homeowner failed to do so if he felt uncomfortable that was a failure point on his part) the original poster would have been criminally trespassing. If that was the case then had the homeowner drawn on them and the original poster reciprocated the OP would have been 100% wrong in doing so. The point of a CHL is to get you out of bad situations, not get in a gun battle because your morals dictate that you not retreat. I don't see how "Farmer Bob" would have been committing a felony by drawing if he told the OP to leave and felt in danger of his and his families safety was in jeopardy. Had the interaction taken place in a public area such as the street, then yes "Farmer Bob" would have been wrong.

Sec. 30.05. CRIMINAL TRESPASS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person enters or remains on or in property of another, including residential land, agricultural land, a recreational vehicle park, a building, or an aircraft or other vehicle, without effective consent and the person:
(1) had notice that the entry was forbidden; or
(2) received notice to depart but failed to do so.

EDIT TO RESPOND TO YOUR EDIT:

Edit: Me myself. Once I had called for help I would have just stayed in the vehicle with the hazards on, and left a note on the truck itself. That is good advice. You had good intent, but at night people get scared (and with reason).

Agreed with you here. Another point is that I wouldn't have pulled the truck onto someones property. I would have written a note and left one on the dash and found a way to fix one to the drivers side window.

Sigh.

I can't say I blame the guy. had the same thing happened in front of my home I would have the same guarded response. I can promise I would have had a gun on me but would have been much less callus. Now if he had drawn, the wrong move to make would have been drawing on him. The best bet at that point would have been to diffuse the situation, back away, and call the police. Justified in drawing on him had he drawn on you? Maybe by the letter of the law but common sense says otherwise. (Keep in mind I am not a lawyer) I wasn't very clear as to if you were on his property or on a sidewalk/public road during your interaction. If I am reading it right you had pulled onto his property.

There is ALWAYS another choice. It might be the right one, might not be. That is where the most powerful weapon comes into play. Keeping your wits about you and making logical and rational decisions. Your morals DO NOT take any precedence over law. Ever. That mentality is a darn quick way to end up in the news. I would highly recommend to you to re-evaluate your view of what a CHL holder is really about. It isn't something that "you sign on" to do. It is a life choice that you make to decrease the likelihood of ending up in a bad place. The fact that you literally said that you have accepted that you are prepared to defend yourself when it wasn't legally justified really concerns me.

I am not trying to bring you down, but you need to hear what I am saying. Please think about it not only for your sake, but for the people in your life's sake as well as fellow CHL holders.