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I guess the only solution would be to avoid letting a stranger hold something of value of yours.

Can I see your cell phone? Show it to him in your hand. If he wants to "hold it", I'd rather not. You would never expect anyone to do something like that, but obviously it happens.

Maybe you should go drinking in non-51% establishments.

Wow, Fangs that is quite a bit of restraint you showed. I don't know what I would have done in that situation, but I don't go to bars either. ;)

lanternlad wrote:My family is close enough to live together happily in a tent if that is what the future brings, as long as we are together. And regarding the attacker not holding a weapon, a fist IS a deadly weapon. Any UFC fighter or boxer will agree.

You won't be spending much time with your family if you end up in prison for an unjustified shooting, which I have to be honest with you, this sure sounds like to me. Fists beating on your hood, is an entirely different thing than fists beating on your face.

Maybe someone with more knowledge or experience of the law will chime in here on the man attacking the car vs. the man attacking the family/trying to get into the car.

Bart wrote:If the guy is being violent I wouldn't wait for him to cause serious bodily injury to me or my family.

How much injury can an empty handed man cause to your family while outside of your car?

lanternlad wrote:Never draw unless you are ready to shoot. Never shoot unless you are willing to kill.

I agree 100%

Were I you, and he had touched my car from the outside in any way, I'd have drawn and fired.

Really? Even if he was kicking your tire, or pounding on your hood with his fists? Kill him for that? I ask in earnest, because it is very different from what I would do. I would only shoot if he tried to enter my vehicle, or produced a weapon that could do harm from outside the car (like a crowbar through the windshield).

I'm no math wiz, but if you've got a tactical light, gun, cell phone to call 911, and maybe a hand to roll up/down your window--that's a few extra hands.

I suppose the two most important ones would be your gun and cell phone, with the window control coming in 3rd. If your wife/husband/friend could call 911 for you, that gives you at least one more free hand to take care of things.

He wasn't driving a teal-green Ford pickup truck was he? ;)

You are at least the 2nd person that brought up the possible use of a flashlight in this situation. I think like that option for nighttime encounters. At the very least, they won't be able to see what you are doing, and it puts them at a distinct disadvantage. If it keeps you, me, or anybody else from having to shoot then I'm all for it. Mentally, I am prepared to defend myself and family against a "bad guy". But the line gets blurry when you are talking about an average joe, who probably just had a bad day at work and is now acting out some seriously ill-timed road rage. Yes, it can still be dangerous, but I think the situation deserves extra deescalation efforts based on who you (think) you're dealing with. I guess that's a judgment call we all have to make. I chose to go with my gut that this guy did not pose a real threat to me after he got out of his car. He stormed around for a few seconds, and then got in his truck and left. It could have been very different, very quickly.

Can we revisit the idea of "drawing your gun, and letting the BG see it, but not pointing it at them?" My friend told me this week that he was actually TOLD to do this by his CHL instructor. I think the example he used was a lady trapped in her car, waiting for a train to go by. A strange man approaches the window of her car. She takes out her gun and places it on the dash, telling the man, "Go away! Leave me alone! You're scaring me!" The gun provides additional warning to the man I guess?

I told my friend that I was under the complete opposite impression from my experiences and instruction. In fact, I think Mr. El Gato said himself during our CHL class not to draw your gun until you were prepared to use it (and/or legally justified to use deadly force).

Is there such a thing as brandishing in Texas?

Locksmith wrote:...under the castle doctrine you have every right to shoot and kill, if he is trying to get into your space (your vehicle) or get you out...

Scott, although the castle doctrine didn't enter my mind during the incident, that is a very good point. I did feel that getting out of my car might have been perceived as an aggressive move on my part like, "yeah, let's fight". The only thing I wanted was for that guy to leave us alone.

Also, I didn't know if more than one guy was going to get out of the truck, and I could have found myself quickly surrounded, outnumbered, and even outgunned. In the car, I could at least have driven off--crashing though other cars, yards, etc... to get away if necessary. I wanted to stay close to protect my wife and kid.

I practiced dry-fire drills today with a fellow CHL'er, and we recreated the scene in his driveway to see how the angles would play out with shooting from the car. It gives me a lot to think about regarding keeping your gun accessible at all times, even when driving in a "safe neighborhood" in the safe environment of your own car.

Although I've never had the chance to practice drawing and firing while seated in a car, I felt like I was in a pretty good position. Leaning forward towards the side-view mirror gave me full access to my holstered weapon. My hand was completely around the handle, and I could have easily drawn.

Also, this guy didn't put himself in a good position (surprise) by using any of his natural cover--the back of his truck or the front of my car would have made it much more difficult to get a good shot at him. As it was, the guy was at a perfect angle for me had I drawn.

I've replayed the situation 100's of times now in my head, and I am satisfied with the outcome. You guys have provided, once again, some valuable insight as to how I can improve the situation next time--or avoid it completely.

Guys, thank you all for your kind words, and insight into this situation. I am so relieved that it didn't come down to shooting the guy. Going over the sequence again, I think the guy was either a huge jerk, or just had a really bad day (that almost got much worse!). He didn't seem high or drunk, so my gut feeling was that he was a nearly rational person that could be talked out if it. However, I've never had my hand on my gun, ready to point it at another human being before in my life, and it was a trying situation.

I guess I always expected that I might have to use deadly force against a predator type of attacker like a robber, rather than just some angry dude. I'm so glad I've spent time on this forum, reading, and talking with other folks about proper response. I really drew on that experience last night.

Excaliber, you make some great points, and I appreciate your input. Taking off my seat belt is something I never thought of. I don't think it would have affected my draw, but it could have hindered me from getting out of the car if needed. I had no intention of getting out, but the circumstances could have changed quickly.

Starting with an apology.... why didn't I think of that?!? I've used that tactic before, and even had it used on me when I was much younger. I remember the disarming sensation it can bring.

My wife and I were getting ready to leave to meet the family for a Christmas Eve service. I commented on how the shirt I was wearing didn't go down as far as my others, and it made me nervous to wear it for fear of accidental flashing. My wife suggested I leave the gun home tonight--after all, we were just going to out to a church service. I told her that now I would have to wear it, since we made the "what could possibly go wrong?" comment. Little did I know how right I was going to be.

After the service, we turned out of the church parking lot and were driving through a residential area, although it was still on a main street in Friendswood. I am unfamiliar with this road, as we were only visiting the church. It was my wife, my 8 year old son, and myself. It was dark out. Traffic was a mess getting out of the parking lot, as 100's of people all tried to leave the church at the same time. It was cold and kind of raining out. I guess I cut some guy off, because he came up fast and was flashing his lights. I pulled over to one side to let him pass, but he slowed and kept pace with me, so I sped up and went past. He came around again, this time from a left turn only lane, and then cut across the front of my car stopping diagonally and blocking my path. There were cars parked to my right, and a car behind me. My car was blocked in.

A very angry man jumped out of the truck, shouting and cussing at me. He began approaching my door, shouting obscenities the whole time. It was one of those moments where it "happens so fast" and yet you have time to think a million thoughts. I remember thinking, "Is this it? Am I going to have to shoot this fool on Christmas Eve?" I rolled down my window and put my hand on my gun. I yelled at him in a loud and commanding voice, "Stay back! Leave us alone! Back off! Leave us alone!" I think I repeated myself about a dozen times, all the while he was continuing to shout at me and challenging me to get out of the car. I told him, "I am calling the police right now" as I held my cellphone in my left hand, right hand remaining in the ready position. I debated on telling him I had a gun, and that I would defend myself. As soon as it had begun, it was over as he turned and jumped back into his truck and drove off.

I checked him out for weapons as soon as he got out of the car, he didn't appear to have any. I didn't want to draw on the guy if possible, but I also felt that drawing may have ended the situation quicker. I resisted the "tough guy" urges to draw my weapon, even though the man was standing in the street shouting every curse word you can think of at me in front of my family. I was furious that my wife and young son were having to listen to him blather on.

When I got through to 911, he was already driving off. I gave them the license plate, description of the vehicle, and which direction he was going.

After things settled down, I talked with my wife about what happened. She confirmed my thoughts on this guy as she told me, "I thought you were going to have to shoot him. I was getting ready to reach back and cover our son's eyes."

We discussed the event at great length, and tried to come up with how this could have been better, or even avoided completely. From the time he was behind us flashing his lights till he was out of his car was maybe 20-30 seconds. He was out of his car for probably 10-15 seconds yelling at us. Not much time to think about a reaction.

For me, a couple of things stand out, but I'd also like to throw this out to the group for insight, and the valuable tactical feedback you guys often have.

1. I was very angry with myself for letting my car get boxed in. I wasn't thinking about this guy actually jumping out of his truck, but obviously he did. That alone could have made things much worse. I need to work on ways to AVOID the confrontation altogether.

2. I had pepper spray in my console, sitting right in the open. I could have easily grabbed it and used it, but the thought never even crossed my mind. I guess that shows me how useful it is in my current setup.

3. I had decided that if the guy were to come any closer, or produce a weapon of any sort, he would have been staring down the barrel of my gun. If he had produced a gun, I would have shot immediately. The thought of his return fire heading at my car with my wife and kid give me shudders.

4. At some point, I thought telling the guy I had a gun might have ended the whole thing quicker. My wife thinks it could have provoked more aggression. I know in some situations it can be considered a 'terroristic threat'. At what point can you (or should you) say "I've got a gun, leave me alone"?

5. I've never claimed to be an expert in body language, but I felt this guy wasn't going to follow through on his threats pretty quickly after he got out of the truck. My wife said his body language changed when he saw my response to him was equally as aggressive (telling him to back off, while leaning forward) and not cowering in fear. I was only leaning forward so I could grab my gun, but I guess it is an aggressive posture. In any case, he stopped advancing on our car and hung out about 8-10ft away before he returned to his truck.

6. I was kicking myself for rolling the window down. I felt like I exposed my family to more potential harm that way, if only just for protection from the foul language. Or he could have tried to spit on us. On the other hand, I had decided that if this idiot was going to come pounding on my window that I might shoot him. Rolling the window down and demanding that he stop while he was still approaching could have saved his life. Without a weapon visible, I felt comfortable that he could not harm us from where he was. Yes, I know about the 21ft thing, and 1.5 second response time... I was ready for that. If he made a move toward the car, the gun was coming out.

I also know that shooting the guy might not have been the end of it. What if the guy's wife came out of the truck afterwords going crazy because someone just shot her husband? The guy claimed to have "kids" in the car--they could have come out to see their dad get shot on Christmas Eve. Ugh...

My wife said that this renewed her interest in getting a CHL of her own. She's always been very supportive of mine, but never got hers. For her part, she also feels she should have been calling 911 from the start, instead of letting me do it. I agree, but I'm glad her first focus was on our son.

So that's about it. Please chime in, and comment so that I can learn form this experience. As I was sitting with my family later in the evening, watching my kid open some Christmas presents, I was so thankful to be there, and not at a police station giving a statement. I want to be better prepared mentally to make the right decisions. I can really see how this stuff happens so fast that you don't have time to prepare a response.


Merry Christmas to you all!