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In writing it sounds worse than it is. I didn't set the weapon down until the police were actually present. While I was talking to the officer I was maybe 15 feet from it. And with no way to keep it on my body (save for in my hands), I didn't have much alternative. Also, when I say she was behind the car, I don't mean she was crouched by the tire; I merely mean the car was blocking the guy's line of sight to her. In reality she was a good 15 or 20 feet away from it as well.

Basically, three things:

Makes sure that whoever is calling 911 notifies them that you are a CHL holder and have your weapon out, as well as a description of you (color of your shirt, race, build, whatever will easily identify you from a distance).

Make the police comfortable. Talk to them (even if it means shouting) to communicate the situation. If doing so would not endanger your life or the life of the third party you are attempting to help, put your weapon down and step away from it (or holster it depending on the situation) so the police know you are not a threat and you intend to comply.

COMPLY WITH ALL POLICE ORDERS.

That is all.

jmra wrote:

imkopaka wrote:
Yes, I know quite well that I'm stupid. But it's just not within me to stand idly by while someone is victimized. Even if helping them means I could face legal trouble, that's usually an afterthought for me. Being a protector is my nature - always has been. I just do what I think is right and trust God to protect me from unjust repercussions.

Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting that your actions were stupid - I would have (and have) done the same thing.

I know you weren't suggesting that, but I also know that I tend to become blind to consequences anytime I am in the right. As if simply doing the right thing in the way I see best also makes that a legal, safe, or justifiable way. I don't concern myself with questions like, "could I get hurt," or "is this legal." If I'm doing the right thing my forethought typically ends there and (if I ended up in court) I would expect the jury to see it my way because I was right. This is a stupid mentality though, because as we all know: the world doesn't work that way!

jmra wrote:OP, I think you did everything correctly. I found myself in a similar situation years back and reacted the same. Afterwards I sat through a two hour lecture from my LEO friend about how stupid I was.
Getting involved in a domestic is always dicey. If this truly was a domestic you will more than likely see the same scenario with the same woman play out again and again. I say the first time is benifit of the doubt, the second, third, and fourth times are calls to the police from my driveway or my living room.
In my situation my wife and I physically extracted a woman being attacked on Canal St in New Orleans as we were leaving a fireworks display on the river on the 4th of July (looking back I wonder how many passerbys thought we were kidnapping the woman). She asked us to take her to her parents house. When we arrived the first thing her mom said was "what did you do to make him mad this time?" Before we left the dad had already called the abusive husband to come and get his wife. I learned then that there was nothing I could do to save this young lady. Be careful you don't get sucked into someone else's self-destructive behavior.
Good luck and stay safe.

Yes, I know quite well that I'm stupid. But it's just not within me to stand idly by while someone is victimized. Even if helping them means I could face legal trouble, that's usually an afterthought for me. Being a protector is my nature - always has been. I just do what I think is right and trust God to protect me from unjust repercussions.

Bryanmc wrote:Sounds like you did fine. After reading through the whole thread, I'm wondering where the "meth lab / meth dealer" part came from. I didn't see the op say that, so it seems it was conjured up from "problems of an undisclosable nature", which in reality could be many many things. I'm sure if they suspect he's dealing or cooking (especially) there's already an investigation and the OP's unrequested assistance isn't necessary.

Yes, I did say that. One of the neighbors who's lived here longer than I have tells me that this guy used to be a correctional officer at the prison in town until about 3 or 4 years ago when he got addicted to meth and get fired. Since then he's been selling (and maybe making) it to support his addiction and provide income. I've heard from other (very reputable) people that this is more or less correct.

Something I thought was a little funny today:
I went to the hardware store here in town to pick up a tool I needed to repair my shop-vac, and being a bit on edge from this whole ordeal I was unashamedly OC. The guy at the hardware store commented with a chuckle that I was the first person he's seen OC. I couldn't help but notice that I haven't seen anyone else OC either.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone for their opinions. Even if I come off as defensive, arrogant, or self-righteous, I really do appreciate your comments. They provide me with largely positive influences and multiple points of view that allow me to adjust my attitude, and by extension, my future actions. This is why I post here. You are all helping me learn.

I understand your position, but this woman was obviously not a child. And as I said, I wouldn't just run over and shoot, I was simply prepared to use deadly force if he didn't cooperate. By that I mean if I approach and tell him, "let her go and put your hands up," and he continues to restrain her, you better believe he's going down.

I do own my home, and unfortunately I'm only 2 years into a 30 year loan, so leaving isn't really an option unless I were actually targeted repeatedly.

I'm considering adding a camera system, but as I said, cost is a factor. Maybe after I replace my poor, old car I can look at Costco's selection.


lildave40, when I saw her walking toward me I was in the process of running to the guys porch. He was using force to move her into his home against her will. Use your imagination as to why (she has been described as a recently acquired girlfriend). Under the circumstances (with legal support below), I believed he was committing aggravated kidnapping and was prepared to legally use deadly force against him if he refused to comply.

Sec. 9.31. SELF-DEFENSE. (a) Except as provided in Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force. The actor's belief that the force was immediately necessary as described by this subsection is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:

(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the force was used:

(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;

(B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor's habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or

(C) was committing or attempting to commit aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery;

(2) did not provoke the person against whom the force was used; and

(3) was not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic at the time the force was used.

(b) The use of force against another is not justified:

(1) in response to verbal provocation alone;

(2) to resist an arrest or search that the actor knows is being made by a peace officer, or by a person acting in a peace officer's presence and at his direction, even though the arrest or search is unlawful, unless the resistance is justified under Subsection (c);

(3) if the actor consented to the exact force used or attempted by the other;

(4) if the actor provoked the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force, unless:

(A) the actor abandons the encounter, or clearly communicates to the other his intent to do so reasonably believing he cannot safely abandon the encounter; and

(B) the other nevertheless continues or attempts to use unlawful force against the actor; or

(5) if the actor sought an explanation from or discussion with the other person concerning the actor's differences with the other person while the actor was:

(A) carrying a weapon in violation of Section 46.02; or

(B) possessing or transporting a weapon in violation of Section 46.05.

(c) The use of force to resist an arrest or search is justified:

(1) if, before the actor offers any resistance, the peace officer (or person acting at his direction) uses or attempts to use greater force than necessary to make the arrest or search; and

(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the peace officer's (or other person's) use or attempted use of greater force than necessary.

(d) The use of deadly force is not justified under this subchapter except as provided in Sections 9.32, 9.33, and 9.34.

(e) A person who has a right to be present at the location where the force is used, who has not provoked the person against whom the force is used, and who is not engaged in criminal activity at the time the force is used is not required to retreat before using force as described by this section.

(f) For purposes of Subsection (a), in determining whether an actor described by Subsection (e) reasonably believed that the use of force was necessary, a finder of fact may not consider whether the actor failed to retreat.

Sec. 9.33. DEFENSE OF THIRD PERSON. A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect a third person if:

(1) under the circumstances as the actor reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.31 or 9.32 in using force or deadly force to protect himself against the unlawful force or unlawful deadly force he reasonably believes to be threatening the third person he seeks to protect; and

(2) the actor reasonably believes that his intervention is immediately necessary to protect the third person.

Sec. 20.01. DEFINITIONS. In this chapter:

(1) "Restrain" means to restrict a person's movements without consent, so as to interfere substantially with the person's liberty, by moving the person from one place to another or by confining the person. Restraint is "without consent" if it is accomplished by:

(A) force, intimidation, or deception; or

(B) any means, including acquiescence of the victim, if:

(i) the victim is a child who is less than 14 years of age or an incompetent person and the parent, guardian, or person or institution acting in loco parentis has not acquiesced in the movement or confinement; or

(ii) the victim is a child who is 14 years of age or older and younger than 17 years of age, the victim is taken outside of the state and outside a 120-mile radius from the victim's residence, and the parent, guardian, or person or institution acting in loco parentis has not acquiesced in the movement.

(2) "Abduct" means to restrain a person with intent to prevent his liberation by:

(A) secreting or holding him in a place where he is not likely to be found; or

(B) using or threatening to use deadly force.

(3) "Relative" means a parent or stepparent, ancestor, sibling, or uncle or aunt, including an adoptive relative of the same degree through marriage or adoption.

(4) "Person" means an individual, corporation, or association.

(5) Notwithstanding Section 1.07, "individual" means a human being who has been born and is alive.

Sec. 20.04. AGGRAVATED KIDNAPPING. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly abducts another person with the intent to:

(1) hold him for ransom or reward;

(2) use him as a shield or hostage;

(3) facilitate the commission of a felony or the flight after the attempt or commission of a felony;

(4) inflict bodily injury on him or violate or abuse him sexually;

(5) terrorize him or a third person; or

(6) interfere with the performance of any governmental or political function.

(b) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally or knowingly abducts another person and uses or exhibits a deadly weapon during the commission of the offense.

(c) Except as provided by Subsection (d), an offense under this section is a felony of the first degree.

(d) At the punishment stage of a trial, the defendant may raise the issue as to whether he voluntarily released the victim in a safe place. If the defendant proves the issue in the affirmative by a preponderance of the evidence, the offense is a felony of the second degree.

Boy, wouldn't it be nice if I could just go Batman on his rear end, break in, gather evidence in a way that could be used to convict, and then hand him over the cops? It's nice to dream...Fortunately I have multiple four-legged alarm systems, plenty of outside lights, and a caliber for every occasion. He's not gonna get the jump on me.

imkopaka wrote:Okay, I looked the house up on the appraisal district's website. Got the owner's name and address. He lives somewhere else, so I'm assuming the place is rented. I think I might initiate some form of contact with the owner.

NEVERMIND.

Remember how "a man was pulling a woman away from a pickup in the driveway toward the front door of the house"? Yeah. I just looked up the owner's house on google maps. The street view showed that very same pickup in the driveway of the owner's house. Suddenly I'm not so confident that the owner will see things my way.

Okay, I looked the house up on the appraisal district's website. Got the owner's name and address. He lives somewhere else, so I'm assuming the place is rented. I think I might initiate some form of contact with the owner.

Yes, I will definitely be armed even just going to get the mail from now on. Sadly, I'm not much of a people person, so I don't know anyone in my neighborhood really. I've lived here for 2 years and just learned the name of my next door neighbor last month. Suddenly organizing a community against this guy seems awfully confrontational and ill-advised. If I had relationships with my neighbors already, that would be one thing, but to suddenly knock on someone's door and say, "hi, you don't know me, but I think you should carry a gun from now on" seems kind of...off-putting.

I would love to help the police out with pictures and whatnot, but my responsibility is to my family first, so I don't want make myself any more of a thorn in his side than I already am...because the more I impede his "business", the more I become a target.

TVegas: I would like to keep a gun in the car, but I don't have the funds to mount a safe in there, and that's the only way I would feel comfortable leaving a gun unattended like that.

I don't know if he owns or rents, but since I don't even know his name, I'm not sure how I would find out. Even then, I have no evidence to bring against him other than what the police already know, so I don't have anything to present to the owner (if it isn't him).

Beiruty: I don't know what happened with the woman. After the police arrived I lost track of her. She was on the phone while we waited for police to arrive, so it's possible she called a friend to come pick her up. It's also possible she left with the cops, but it's also possible she went with the guy. I was angry that they didn't arrest him, but it's likely he knows how to play the system well enough to avoid getting hauled off immediately.

I was in my driveway cleaning my car yesterday afternoon when I heard screaming down the street. At first it sounded like kids playing (and maybe a bit dissatisfied with the intensity of said playing), but after a couple seconds I heard "HELP ME!! SOMEBODY HELP ME!!" I ran out into the street to get a better view of what was happening. 3 or 4 houses down on the opposite side of the street, a man was pulling a woman away from a pickup in the driveway toward the front door of the house, with a firm grip on her clothes or hair (couldn't quite tell, but she was hunched over too far for me to believe he was pulling her arm).

Of course me being the amazing CHL holder that I am, obviously I...didn't have my gun on me. I was in my driveway in sweatpants and loafers cleaning trash out of my car. I didn't think it was necessary. Fortunately, I knew exactly where my gun was, so I sprinted inside to get it. I told my wife to call 911 for domestic violence (though now that I think about it I could have made a case for aggravated kidnapping),and I ran out the door at the low ready. When I got back outside the woman was already halfway between me and the guy, running towards me. Apparently she saw me come to investigate and decided I looked safe enough given the circumstances. I told her she was safe now and that police were on the way, introduced myself and told her my qualifications to make her feel safer, and tried to get her behind my car and out of sight.

While I was trying to calm her down, I had my eyes on the guy the whole time. He kept going back and forth between the house and car for reasons unknown. At one point I swear I saw him holding a handgun while he looked at me. Before the police arrived, he went into the house and stayed there.

When the police arrived (three police units AND the sheriff), I flagged them down, placed my gun on the roof of my car, and approached the closest officer. Obviously nervous, the officer got out of the car with his hand on his pistol. I quickly told him, "Hi, sir - my name is Aaron Cook, I'm a CHL holder and I've got my ID in my pocket so you don't need to worry about the gun." He seemed quite comfortable after that. He asked me for a sit-rep, I explained what happened, and the officers went to the house.

They knocked on the door for close to 10 minutes before this guy came out. According to a neighbor who's lived here longer than I have, the guy is a meth dealer. Other people have since told me this as well. I don't know what he told the cops, but they all eventually left...and he didn't. After the police left I saw him look in his own front window (???), then stoop and pick something off the ground. I couldn't see what it was because he was facing away from me, but I heard a sound that was unmistakably a slide being racked.

At this point, I've already changed into jeans and running shoes and strapped on my open-carry serpa holster. An officer came to get a written statement from me and told me what I already suspected - they've had problems of an undisclosable nature with this guy before.

Analysis:

Things that went wrong.
+I didn't have my gun on me.
+I wasn't sure what to do with my gun once the police arrived. Initially I tried to conceal it in my pants, but since I was holster-less and in sweatpants, it almost fell out. That's when I decided to stick it on the roof of the car.
+I wasn't able to convince the woman to go into my house, where it would have been easier to defend her and myself if the guy followed her.
+Police couldn't get a warrant to enter his home, so his alleged meth operation went uninvestigated.

Things that went right.
+We got the woman out of there. I don't know where she went after the fact, but we still got her out of there in that moment.
+I kept my cool. No tunnel vision, shakes, confusion, rage, "bulletproof syndrome", etc.
+I didn't piss of the police.
+Police response was timely, large, and coordinated.
+My wife had the kids in our bedroom and had her 9mm at the ready in case anything crazy happened.

Thoughts?