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by Jusme
Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:57 am
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: How Should This Confrontation Be Handled?
Replies: 56
Views: 9242

Re: How Should This Confrontation Be Handled?

Solsand wrote:
Jusme wrote:
Solsand wrote:To all - as the original poster, this thread sort of got away from me. Before I had a chance to reply.This is only my second post and my previous was with regards to open carry on a MC. I tell you I love this forum and every answer to my post was informative or helpful in some way. And a lot of the answers are just plain common sense - "why get out of the car", "why not pull away", etc. The one thing I was taught in my class that I always try to remember was the duty of the CHL holder to de-escalate any confrontation. That one mantra will probably save most folks a lot of pain, trouble and heartache.

That said, because I am an almost daily MC rider, I made one glaring omission when setting up this (as I'm sure most of you have guessed by now) not so hypothetical situation... What if I'm on my bike with no way to remove myself (e.g. blocked in)? This actually occurred to a fellow rider brother of mine. He went out of his way to NOT shoot the guy, but we all wondered if he was within his rights and the law to hold the guy - at gunpoint if necessary - until LEO could arrive. Since he did not, the offender fled and has never been caught (more than a year). Police report after the fact proved he was not the aggressor regardless of whatever road rage incident may have taken place. He was on a bike, the other party approached at the light and before he could side stand his bike to at least defend himself... BAM!

So I apologize to all who have answered my post, but definitely not a waste. These answers still apply to a situation that could occur to anyone. If some of you could now, re-assess this scenario with the changes I have just described. Could he legally hold the offender at gunpoint until LEO arrives, using his phone communication with 911 as a sort of record of the events and to avoid any possible confrontation with LEO arriving on scene?

You guys are awesome and I really appreciate the interest. I'm sure I'm biased but as a MC rider we are constantly - sometimes daily - faced with folks who would rather just run " those scum bikers" off the road. Heaven forbid we flip someone off after the fact or use a get back whip...
While being on a bike definitely changes the inside/outside issue and as a rider myself I know how vulnerable someone on a bike can be not only while moving but while stopped for lights/traffic etc. I still stand by my original reply in that once the gun has been produced and the attack has stopped, then to possibly re-escalate the situation by trying to force the aggressor to stay puts you into a precarious situation in that, if he tries to leave, you would not be justified in using deadly force to stop him from doing so. I would at that point call 911 and speak to any other witnesses and see if they will remain to speak with police.
I think this actually answers my question... if he attempts to flee then I am no longer justified in using force of any kind, to hold him until police arrived. Now, if I attempt to get away from the attacker and he continues to pursue - and I can pull my weapon with no doubt of it not being taken from me - at that point I WOULD be justified


If the person continues after you have drawn your weapon and you believe your life is in danger then yes you are justified in using deadly force, but being justified does not always mean it is the best decision. Everyone who is put into a situation will have to make that decision for themself, I say a prayer every time I put on my gun that it will stay in its holster and I'll never have to make the choice to use it on another human being.

Stay safe and aware.
by Jusme
Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:50 am
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: How Should This Confrontation Be Handled?
Replies: 56
Views: 9242

Re: How Should This Confrontation Be Handled?

Solsand wrote:To all - as the original poster, this thread sort of got away from me. Before I had a chance to reply.This is only my second post and my previous was with regards to open carry on a MC. I tell you I love this forum and every answer to my post was informative or helpful in some way. And a lot of the answers are just plain common sense - "why get out of the car", "why not pull away", etc. The one thing I was taught in my class that I always try to remember was the duty of the CHL holder to de-escalate any confrontation. That one mantra will probably save most folks a lot of pain, trouble and heartache.

That said, because I am an almost daily MC rider, I made one glaring omission when setting up this (as I'm sure most of you have guessed by now) not so hypothetical situation... What if I'm on my bike with no way to remove myself (e.g. blocked in)? This actually occurred to a fellow rider brother of mine. He went out of his way to NOT shoot the guy, but we all wondered if he was within his rights and the law to hold the guy - at gunpoint if necessary - until LEO could arrive. Since he did not, the offender fled and has never been caught (more than a year). Police report after the fact proved he was not the aggressor regardless of whatever road rage incident may have taken place. He was on a bike, the other party approached at the light and before he could side stand his bike to at least defend himself... BAM!

So I apologize to all who have answered my post, but definitely not a waste. These answers still apply to a situation that could occur to anyone. If some of you could now, re-assess this scenario with the changes I have just described. Could he legally hold the offender at gunpoint until LEO arrives, using his phone communication with 911 as a sort of record of the events and to avoid any possible confrontation with LEO arriving on scene?

You guys are awesome and I really appreciate the interest. I'm sure I'm biased but as a MC rider we are constantly - sometimes daily - faced with folks who would rather just run " those scum bikers" off the road. Heaven forbid we flip someone off after the fact or use a get back whip...
While being on a bike definitely changes the inside/outside issue and as a rider myself I know how vulnerable someone on a bike can be not only while moving but while stopped for lights/traffic etc. I still stand by my original reply in that once the gun has been produced and the attack has stopped, then to possibly re-escalate the situation by trying to force the aggressor to stay puts you into a precarious situation in that, if he tries to leave, you would not be justified in using deadly force to stop him from doing so. I would at that point call 911 and speak to any other witnesses and see if they will remain to speak with police.
by Jusme
Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:20 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: How Should This Confrontation Be Handled?
Replies: 56
Views: 9242

Re: How Should This Confrontation Be Handled?

Pawpaw wrote:The very first Texas CHL-involved shooting happened in Dallas. In traffic, two trucks hit their mirrors together. One guy decided to get out and teach the other (the CHL) a lesson.

The CHL did the smart thing by staying in his vehicle with the windows up and the doors locked. This merely infuriated the first guy, so he broke the window, reached in and started beating the CHL. The CHL pulled out his handgun and put one .40 S&W (I think) round right in the middle of his chest. The CHL wound up with some permanent injuries, including a broken eye socket.

Although the media tried to crucify the CHL, the grand jury no billed him. If he had gotten out of his vehicle, the outcome MIGHT have been different.

Edit: Here are the articles, first about the shooting and second about being no billed. I was wrong about his window being up.

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/02/23/us/tr ... n-law.html

http://articles.latimes.com/1996-03-21/ ... grand-jury

I remember this case very well the two leftist reports from NYT and the LA paper are so full of misinformation it's ridiculous. The CHL holder, was chased by the other driver until he had to stop for a light behind traffic. The other driver got out and punched the CHL holder several times and was trying to pull him out of his vehicle. These facts were testified to by all witnesses including the dead guys partner.
by Jusme
Wed Feb 17, 2016 3:24 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: How Should This Confrontation Be Handled?
Replies: 56
Views: 9242

Re: How Should This Confrontation Be Handled?

WildBill wrote:
CODE OF CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

TITLE 1. CODE OF CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

CHAPTER 14. ARREST WITHOUT WARRANT

Art. 14.01. OFFENSE WITHIN VIEW. (a) A peace officer or any other person, may, without a warrant,
arrest an offender when the offense is committed in his presence or within his view, if the offense is
one classed as a felony or as an offense against the public peace.

I agree there is statutory law " allowing" one to make an arrest, however, if the person leaves/flees etc.. the OP would not be justified in using deadly force. While the law may allow you to affect an arrest, with the given scenario, I would err on the side of caution and allow the attacker to leave. It gets real sticky between citizen's arrest and unlawful detention/restraint.
by Jusme
Wed Feb 17, 2016 2:59 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: How Should This Confrontation Be Handled?
Replies: 56
Views: 9242

Re: How Should This Confrontation Be Handled?

Great question as I'm sure this is a potentially real situation one could find themselves in. As far as holding the person at gun point after he stops the attack, I would say no. Get license plate info, description, have police take photos of any injuries, But if he chooses to walk away you would not be justified in using force, deadly or otherwise to keep him there.

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