TexasCHLforum.com

Solaris

Bryanmc wrote:
Keith B wrote:
Bryanmc wrote: I agree (although IANAL either). In my opinion, the sign controls the area behind it. If it's at the entrance to a building it only controls the building, if it's at the entrance to the parking lot it controls the parking lot AND the building.
But if it's a single ownership of all the property, then a sign on the building would technically mean any property they own was not legal to enter.
In my opinion, the signs are meant to immediately inform,

Yeah, they are informing you that you can not be on their property with a gun.

How about there is no sign, but an employee standing at door giving same 30.06/07 notice. You think he is going to let you continue stand next to him on the property with a gun? Of course not. You either leave or he calls the cops.

eta

I am not talking about a a strip mall with multiple tenants, but a single parking lot + building with one owner. I agree in a strip mall, they only have control of the property from their door in.

Solaris

ScottDLS wrote:I don't think you'll find anything applying the statute specifically to carrying in the terminal, which is why nobody gets charged with it (49 U.S. Code § 46505).

ROFL. Think again grasshopper, I the google-fu master can can easily find it, I think you are the one who has trouble finding it.

And folks do get charged. You are falling victim to the belief that if you do not know about it, it did not happen. Sure it does not happen much in Texas/DFW, but that is because our airports are generally absent Federal LEOs. But the Feds do get involved after the fact, usually in the form of civil penalties and criminal charges if the person has criminal intent.

§ 1540.111 Carriage of weapons, explosives, and incendiaries by individuals.
(a) On an individual's person or accessible property—prohibitions. Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, an individual may not have a weapon, explosive, or incendiary, on or about the individual's person or accessible property—
(1) When performance has begun of the inspection of the individual's person or accessible property before entering a sterile area, or before boarding an aircraft for which screening is conducted under this subchapter;
(2) When the individual is entering or in a sterile area; or
(3) When the individual is attempting to board or onboard an aircraft for which screening is conducted under §§ 1544.201, 1546.201, or 1562.23 of this chapter.

(b) On an individual's person or accessible property—permitted carriage of a weapon. Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply as to carriage of firearms and other weapons if the individual is one of the following:
(1) Law enforcement personnel required to carry a firearm or other weapons while in the performance of law enforcement duty at the airport.
(2) An individual authorized to carry a weapon in accordance with §§ 1544.219, 1544.221, 1544.223, 1546.211, or subpart B of part 1562 of this chapter.
(3) An individual authorized to carry a weapon in a sterile area under a security program.

Solaris

ScottDLS wrote:
Solaris wrote:
ScottDLS wrote: What is the Federal law that makes it illegal to have a gun in the secure area? Is there a specific exemption for LEO, security guards, etc?

49 U.S. Code § 46505- Carrying a weapon or explosive on an aircraft

Keep in mind there is a host of Case Law and CFR further defining it dating back to like 1970 or so.
The terminal area of the airport is not an aircraft, which is why I specifically framed the question that way.

Hence why I wrote "Keep in mind there is a host of Case Law and CFR further defining it dating back to like 1970 or so."

Solaris

ScottDLS wrote: What is the Federal law that makes it illegal to have a gun in the secure area? Is there a specific exemption for LEO, security guards, etc?

49 U.S. Code § 46505 - Carrying a weapon or explosive on an aircraft

Keep in mind there is a host of Case Law and CFR further defining it dating back to like 1970 or so.

Solaris

goose wrote:
Solaris wrote: If I try to CC a gun into a secure area of an airport in Texas, and get caught, they have to let me leave with gun and no charges.

But if try CC a gun in the parking lot of the local gas station, and get caught I can be arrested on the spot.
But by legal statute and such and such, if you attempt/try, you haven't broken the law yet because you didn't make it into the secured area yet. If you were to be found with a gun inside the secured area you would/would be arrested on the spot.

Negative. attempting to bring a gun into a Secure Area (any place after TSA checks your ID) is a violation of both State and Federal Law. There are rarely Federal LEs at these checkpoints, so Federal arrest is unlikely. As for state law, the exemption applies only to LTC, if you have no LTC you get arrested as Barry Switzer found out. As did Sen. Juan “Chuy” Hinojosa-D, Drew Darby-R, Eric Laffoon, and Shemane Nugent who had CHL, to name a few, was also arrested before this law went into effect:

(e-1) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a)(5) that the actor:
(1) possessed, at the screening checkpoint for the secured area, a concealed handgun that the actor was licensed to carry under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code; and
(2) exited the screening checkpoint for the secured area immediately upon completion of the required screening processes and notification that the actor possessed the handgun.
(e-2) A peace officer investigating conduct that may constitute an offense under Subsection (a)(5) and that consists only of an actor's possession of a concealed handgun that the actor is licensed to carry under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, may not arrest the actor for the offense unless:

Solaris

SMRoot wrote: If the property boundaries are not clearly marked with a fence or purple paint, and you say, "stay off of my property," I have no idea where - precisely - you have banned me from going. I have to know what property belongs to you and what belongs to your neighbors.

YMMV. I have never really had a problem knowing what property a sign applied to. Are there exceptions, sure but 99.9% of the time it is obvious. And the simple answer is when in doubt, do not enter until you have consulted withe local county property records office.

SMRoot wrote: I find these laws odd. I find it odd that I can commit a crime by entering a place of business carrying something that can't be seen and is not causing a disturbance either to the property owner's business or the other patrons. I understand that those are the laws, and I will follow them, but I want to make sure I understand exactly where I am prohibited from carrying an effective mechanism for self-defense and where I'm not. I don't intend to disarm unless required by law or a higher power -like my wife. So, I wish that these laws excluded parking lots and garages and only applied to premises or fenced in areas where the boundary can be more precisely specified.

No argument there. Here is something I find odd.

If I try to CC a gun into a secure area of an airport in Texas, and get caught, they have to let me leave with gun and no charges.

But if try CC a gun in the parking lot of the local gas station, and get caught I can be arrested on the spot.

Solaris

ScottDLS wrote:[
"This property" means the parking lot...or does it mean the land that the parking parking lot is on and everything on it, including vehicles and aircraft? Or all the parts of the parking lot and buildings that are owned by person posting the sign?

Common sense usage applies.

If you tell someone to stay off your property, do you mean do not come in the house but feel free to use the swimming pool and drive the vehicles?

Sign says "No guns on White House Property". OK to shoot skeet on the South Lawn?

eta

I find it odd we are discussing what a nearly 20 year old law with commonly used phrases means.

Solaris

Ruark wrote:[

I've never really been clear on this, either. Say you have a big multi-store shopping area with a PetSmart, Best Buy, Office Depot, a couple of restaurants, etc. NONE of these have 06/07 signs on their doors, BUT they're posted at the entrances to the parking lots. The 30.06/07 language says "may not enter this property....."

I have a CHL/LTC. Do those signs prohibit me from legally carrying into those stores? I assume they prohibit carrying in the parking lots.....?

I don't think I've ever heard a definitive answer to this question.

They mean what they say. "may not enter this property.....". Is the PetSmart, Best Buy, Office Depot, a couple of restaurants, etc. on the property that is posted? There is your definitive answer.

Solaris

SMRoot wrote: Agreed. Hence, my question. Much of this is a bit confusing to me. It would seem that someone could post on a building and that it would make carrying outside of a vehicle in the parking lot off limits as well since it is all party of the same property. As soon as you see it, you have trespassed and will be in violation until you get back to your car.

Correct, they partially they fixed this with 30.07 by requiring the sign to be at the entrance to property, but for whatever reason did not change 30.06.

Solaris

TangoX-ray wrote:Parking lot isn't premises (building or portion of a building).

Hence why the law/sign says property.

Solaris

SMRoot wrote: So, what you seem to be saying is that I must assume that all buildings with access from a certain parking lot are owned by the same entity.

Yes. There are some assumptions to be made. Another assumption is the property owner placed the sign, and not an anti-gun group, or the property was not sold earlier that day and the sign was thus put up by a previous property owner....

SMRoot wrote: I've read the statute several times, but did not find the answer to my question to be clearly defined in there. Maybe I'm just being obtuse.

What question is left unanswered?

Solaris

SMRoot wrote: So, if there is a sign posted in that mall parking lot, are all of the buildings that I can access without going back out onto the street now off limits?

Yes. Keep in mind 06/07 signs only apply if you are carrying under authority of LTC law. Hence why you can have CC in car, but cannot take it out of car.

SMRoot wrote: Also, is it only the property owner that can post signs? Is it an authority that is commonly designated to lessees somehow? Thanks.

"..the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner..."

Teach a man to fish...

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.30.htm

Solaris

SMRoot wrote:Hi everyone,

Hopefully it's ok if I just jump right in with some questions. The parking lot at my workplace is posted 30.06 and 30.07. So, I'm assuming that means that the entire property, including the premises, is off limits for carry. However, it got me thinking about parking lots with multiple buildings and parking lots that connect with each other and made me wonder how to define the limits of what a given sign can make off limits for carry. Any of you experienced folks have any words of wisdom on that? Thanks.

SMRoot

The law and the sign define the limits:

"... may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"

So it is limited to the property.

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