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srothstein wrote: ↑Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:53 pm

jb2012 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:42 pmWe can thank “fast and furious” for a significant portion of these weapons being in their hands.

While I hate that program and see it was a mistake, I must point out that it is not the source of a significant number of weapons to the cartels. I urge people to stop repeating this claim. Think about this: If fast and furious was a significant source of firearms, then it means the claims made to justify the program are true and illegal sales in the US are a significant source also. This argues that there really is a problem with our gun sales in the US and it justifies other restrictions to help stop guns from going to criminals.

There are illegal arms dealers around the world that sell guns by the truck or train car load. Considering how may of the firearms seen in use by the cartels are fully automatic and never were registered in our NFA registry, I have a hard time believing that any sales in the US are a significant contribution to the arming of the criminals in Mexico. And I don't care how many times the media claims that the flow of guns south is a big part of the problem, until I see better evidence of it, I will not agree it is true.

1. I do think that all of the illegal sales end up in Mexico. It would be naive to say that there aren’t illegal sales all the time, and it would also be naive to say that they don’t end up in the hands of cartels among other organized crime.

2. A fully automatic does not have to be registered in the NFA by default. It has to be registered via nfa by law. If I drill an extra hole in all of my lowers to allow an auto sear, they aren’t automatically registered by the nfa. Obviously mounted .50 cal browning machine guns and AT4 rocket launchers didn’t come (at least directly) from the U.S.

If you can’t buy any of these guns in Mexico, and we are the closest country where many of these weapons ARE for sale to the general public, it’s only reasonable to believe that a number of them had to come from here; especially american made weapons. Once again, I don’t believe it is a huge problem, but I think that you have to agree that it is a problem. Is it a problem cured by any sort of gun control laws? Absolutely not.

Eta: In the end it’s all a matter of speculation, and there is really no way to know the truth.

C-dub wrote: ↑Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:48 am

No measly semi automatic rifles for the cartels.

Video on TV showed dump trucks with mounted 50 cal machine guns being used in the cartel counter offensive.

I’ll see if I can find the video that I saw yesterday.... of cartel members in a smaller sedan with several rifles and an AT4 anti tank weapon. ANTI TANK ROCKET LAUNCHER...

We can thank “fast and furious” for a significant portion of these weapons being in their hands.

A conversation about this incident triggered my uncle to spew off arguably one of the dumbest sentences I’ve heard come out of someone’s mouth.

Uncle: “If I were there I’d go hide up on a mountain, and shoot any of those people that came up there.”

Me and my aunt simultaneously: “Well they don’t have any guns because they are outlawed in mexico. Only the criminals have guns.”

Uncle: “That’s why we shouldn’t ever give up our guns; I know you disagree with this (looks at me) but no one needs a semi automatic rifle.”

Me: (knowing full well what he is about to say) “Why do you think that?”

Him: “Because of all of the crazy things that happen and all of the people they kill.”

Me: “Did you know that ALL rifles, be it bolt action, lever action, pump action, singleshot, or even the big scary black ones all together only account for less than 3% of all homicides involving a firearm?”

Him: “Meh I don’t know.”

And he walked off

I just can’t fathom how in the same conversation and sentence you can talk about how helpless the law abiding Mexican citizens are, and then in the same breath talk about how I or anyone else does not “need” an efficient tool to defense these animals.

I want any weapon as good or better than the evil I may face. I want to have the upper hand in any situation. Whether it’s defending myself from the government or from criminals. Of course government and criminal are pretty interchangeable.