TexasCHLforum.com

Paladin wrote:

txinvestigator wrote:

Paladin wrote:txinvestigator,

You said you have law enforcement experience?

That surprises me.

So you resort to denigrating those who disagree?

I think you denigrated yourself. Your former comment sounded really naive. I'm personnally surprised that someone with law enforcement experience would be that naive.

If a bad guy breaks into my home and they don't run when confronted, and I just wait for him to cover me with his gun, stab me with a knife from my own kitchen, or for his buddy to sneak up behind me... I'm dead. And my family and my pets are dead. Maybe the badguys will go out an kill some more people with the firepower they lifted from my house...

All cause I waited for some explaination for evil?

Like: Excuse me Mr. Burglar... Do you plan on stealing something or just committing some other felony? I can legally shoot you for either one, but I need to know the exact one for my checklist?

Sorry, but I just think your advice would get me and other people killed, and that's why I say it sounds naive.

I am tired of your smart assed comments and taking things out of context. We never mentioned anyone covering you with a gun, nor even having one. we never mentioned anything other than someone simply being in your house.

I have considerable experience in the application of the law, thrrough real life encounters, realistic training scenarios and being both a Private Security Board and CHL instructor., not from internet boards.

Blanket statements like you make are irresponsible and would likely land someone in jail if they took your advice.

You consider me naive? I've BTDT. I will stay someowhat civil and not say what I think of YOU.

I am still waiting for you to show me the law that allows you to use deadly force if you are afraid.

Paladin wrote:txinvestigator,

You said you have law enforcement experience?

That surprises me.

So you resort to denigrating those who disagree?

Paladin wrote:

txinvestigator wrote: For the example I mentioned earlier. If a teenager is stealing the wheels from you car at 2:00 am, thats Theft during the nighttime, right?

So you could just blast them, right?

We talked about just that at the seminar. While it's not at all advisable to do so, because it would be a harsh thing to do and a jury would likely be unsymathetic, you are quoting Texas law. I certainly wouldn't shoot somebody for stealing my hubcaps.

I can quote to you examples of Theft during the nighttime and malicous mischief during the nightime where people were legally killed in Texas.

I agree that I would not shoot someone for stealing my wheels. I don't believe that I would be justified inder Texas law. However, right here in Dallas last year, a man of 70+ years DID use deadly force in the above scenario. The Grand Jury No-billed him, as well they should have. The man reasonably believed there was no other way to prevent the imminent commission of the theft.

Would that be a reasonable belief for ME? I don't think so. I am 44 years old, have LE experience.

Each situation is judged based on the totality of the circumstances. Making blanket statements regarding using deadly force without considering ALL of the facts is not, IMO, a good idea.

Paladin wrote:

txinvestigator wrote:
Is he in the imminent commission of Aggravated Robbery, kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery?

I don't know. do you know what the elements of Agg Robbery are? In the scenario, as you see it in your mind, is the BG doing something that would meet the definition of Agg Robbery?

Actually I know a number of people who were victims of aggravated robbery, aggravated kidnapping, and capital murder.

I've personally witnessed a murder trial and a capital murder trial. Have you?

I've personally witnessed 6 victims of aggravated robbery (2 of whom were shot) testify in court.

Have I what? I was a street cop in a large city in S Texas for 10 years. A LEO friend was murdered by a BG. Not only have I witnessed many trials, I have testified in many, meet with the DA's office in preperation for many criminal cases, given depositions, etc.

I handled many murders, rapes, assaults, robberies, etc. Your point is?????

gigag04 wrote:[
Another point that our instructor brought up was homestead issues, where you can shoot anyone inside your house, technically,

WHAT? Show me THAT law.

If I come into my house and see three 8 yr old kids, and tell them to leave and they don't, could I shoot....Yes.

Again, show me the law.

DF is not justifed in response to trespassing.

Same thing w/ the water hose, would I blast someone for burning off with my yard tools, not likely, though "justifiable" it's too much headache for a $20 piece of equipment.[/quote] DF is justified if you REASONABLY BELIEVE it was IMMEDIATELY NECESSARY to prevent the IMMINENT COMMISSION of theft during the nighttime.

Paladin wrote:txinvestigator,

You said you have law enforcement experience?

That surprises me.

being in fear for your life doesn't matter? Maybe you should have made the seminar.

I have studied hundreds, if not thousands of self defense cases. You think the badguys are going to tell you why they are doing what they're doing? You think the badguys are going to tell you they're going to rape or murder while you still have a chance at doing something about it?

Show me the law that allows use of deadly force if you are "afraid for you life".

Quite simple

Paladin wrote:

txinvestigator wrote:A bad guy entering your home, in an of itself, is not always justification for using deadly force.

I'll say that a bad guy breaking into my home with me or my family home would certainly put me in fear. If they just wanted to steal my stuff they'd most likely do it when no one was home.

Even if the badguy's think that nobodies home, who knows how they would react to finding somebody home? Who knows what they might do? If they run without a fight, well probably they're not a threat. Otherwise I would consider them a threat to my life and the life of my family.

NO where in the use of force laws are you given justification "if you are in fear". What you have to ask is, is it reasonable to believe that deadly force is immediately necessary to prevent the others use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force.

If a BG is JUST breaking into your home, is he using or attempting to use DF? NOPE.

Is he in the imminent commission of Aggravated Robbery, kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery?

I don't know. do you know what the elements of Agg Robbery are? In the scenario, as you see it in your mind, is the BG doing something that would meet the definition of Agg Robbery?

If yes, then is it reasonable for you to believe that it is immediately necessary to use deadly force to prevent the imminent commission of that Agg robbery?

Is the person in the imminent commission of arson,
burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or
criminal mischief during the nighttime?

If so, is it reasonable for you to believe that it is immediately necessary to use deadly force to prevent the imminent commission of that crime. Oh yeah, do you know the elements of the crime?



See what I mean??

For the example I mentioned earlier. If a teenager is stealing the wheels from you car at 2:00 am, thats Theft during the nighttime, right?

So you could just blast them, right?

EDIT: please pardon the spelling errors..................LONG day. ;)

A bad guy entering your home, in an of itself, is not always justification for using deadly force.

Everyone reads the part about "to prevent the immenint commission of a burglary", but many don't notice or pay attnetion to the words "WHEN AND TO THE DEGREE he REASONABLY BELIEVES it is IMMEDIATELY NECESSARY'

As a former LEO, current firearms instructor and trained some in self-defense and tactics, what might not be reasonable for ME, may be reasonable for someone else.

I have to get to work, but tonight I will post an example where I would not be justified in using DF, but a man in Dallas was; the evidence is the fact a Grand Jury no-billed him.

gigag04 wrote:

ghentry wrote:The law doesn't say you can shoot someone on your property just because it's dark!

Yes it does:

texas penal code wrote: §9.42. Deadly force to protect property.

A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:

(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and


(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and

(3) he reasonably believes that:

(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or

(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

(emphasis mine)

giga, you either did not read what you quoted, or you intentionally mislead.

You CANNOT use deadly force SIMPLY because someone is on your property after dark. You replied you could, then quoted a law that does not establish that. Do you really believe you can shoot someone who simply is on your property after dark?

Looking simply at what you posted, one must reasonably believe that the DF is immediately necessary to prevent the IMMINENT commission of a burglary.

How is a person running away in the imminent commission of a burglary?

Granted the article we read does not really give ANY facts, buts lets not misquote the law, and perhaps mislead someone.