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flintknapper wrote:

txinvestigator wrote:

Photoman wrote:

txinvestigator wrote:

Photoman wrote:What is your reasoning for retention with concealed carry?

To keep your gun in the holster and not yanked out by a seat belt, or someone grabbing it in a struggle, or any other of the hundreds of reasons I have actually seen them end up not in the holster.

Thanks for the reply. Any concern about retention devices slowing the draw?

From hand hands up I can unsnap and draw and get 2 shots in the A zone from 7 yards in about 1.8 Seconds, and 3 shots well under 3 seconds from 3 yards. Thats with a shooting timer.

Thats good "to first shot times", I'm curious what your "splits" are? A third round shouldn't add much more than .20-.30 so you would be more than "well under 3". By the way, those times are just about exactly what I do from a shoulder rig. Does that sound slow?

Those are not "to first shot times" they are "to last shot" times.

I was not making a point of comparison to cross-draw, rather I was attempting to show that a simple retention device does not slow one down.

BTW, I am an old leather guy, but there were a couple of guys at the last class with the new Blackhawk Serpa. It is a very fast holster. As soon as BH has one for the Warrier, I am getting one.

flintknapper wrote:

txinvestigator wrote:

kw5kw wrote:TX... of it.
Russ

I understand your desire to have access while driving. It does cause a concern. However, I am not a fan of cross draw at all for several reasons.

Some I would have to show you, but an opponent can easily foil your draw by pushing your arm against your body. Even if you step back with the gun side, you still present the arm across the body.

Also when you draw you tend to muzzle sweep everyone to your left. Kinda difficult to train that way.

And if you have an opponent within arms reach and need to shoot, you simply cannot unless you swing the gun across the front of your body. It is very slow and easy to defeat.

I did not come to these conclusions casually either. I have gone through training attempting each carry mode. As a armed bodyguard, I like to carry in a shoulder holster if I will be driving. However, I also carry strong side 3 o'clock because thats the best place for carry for decisive action, IMO.

And remember, these are all just opinions.

flintknapper wrote:My friend, we have just got to get together. I appreciate your "opinion" concerning cross-draw, but I can't help but think it is the result of your "swallowing" what was taught to you at some training school.

There is nothing slow about cross-draw, you don't have to "sweep" everyone while presenting your weapon, and blading your body when reaching across will thwart most attempts to pin the arm against the body.

We've had this discussion before, and I will be happy to prove to you that "at arms length" I will stall your draw (from your strong side) EVERY time.

Cross draw gets poor press from those who do not know how to do it properly.

It is not an ideal mode of carry for every circumstance, but then neither is any other. It is certainly not deserving of most the things you have claimed it causes or results in.

Please don't take offense or think that I am attacking you or your tactics in my dislike of the cross-draw. There is no need for you to be defensive. If it works for you OK.

My opinions are based on years of research and actual use. I have repeatedely used the cross draw in live training. My opinion is educated and formed from experience, not from reading a book or "swallowing" anything from a training class.

I take my tactics seriously, and I have never been one to jump on the latest "high-speed, low drag" technique or equipment. If I had simply read about or heard about the cross draw I would have nothing to say. But I have trained with it.

I have seen cross drawers switch back to strrong side cary when the cross didn't work well for them under realistic training conditions, unlike static training. (I have seen lots of people change lots of things when they get into realistic training, and find out that HS-LD stuff just isn't working).

How many cross drawing LEO's, IPSC, IDPA, etc, do you see?

And again, I am NOT attacking you or your use of the cross draw. I am simply discussing MY opinions. What do I know?

And I never shy away from an opportunity to train or learn new things, or even to change my mind. Lets train!!

Photoman wrote:

txinvestigator wrote:

Photoman wrote:What is your reasoning for retention with concealed carry?

To keep your gun in the holster and not yanked out by a seat belt, or someone grabbing it in a struggle, or any other of the hundreds of reasons I have actually seen them end up not in the holster.

Thanks for the reply. Any concern about retention devices slowing the draw?

From hand hands up I can unsnap and draw and get 2 shots in the A zone from 7 yards in about 1.8 Seconds, and 3 shots well under 3 seconds from 3 yards. Thats with a shooting timer.

kw5kw wrote:TX... Was that you in the photo's?

That's pretty much what my daughter and son-in-law taught me when they came back from their classes at Gunsite.

But, I carry weak side cross draw, because I'm usually wearing a vest or a coat (jacket, suit etc.) and I use my left hand to pull my garment away from my weapon, while at the exact same time I am reaching across my body with my right to make the draw. (I can also cross my arms while studying the situation, with my strong hand already on the handle of my weapon, long before drawing it if needbe without raising much suspision if any that I even have a weapon.)

Then, once I've cleared my holster, my weak (support) hand cradles the weapon, arms bent, body sightly forward and I'm gaining my front site picture.

By carrying weak side I free my weapon while in the car, it's now no longer strapped in by a seat belt and therefore it is much easier to access while driving. No, I am not an advocate of taking my gun out and laying it under a towel. I wish my weapon to remain on my body if at all possible... that way I remain in total control of it.

Russ

I understand your desire to have access while driving. It does cause a concern. However, I am not a fan of cross draw at all for several reasons.

Some I would have to show you, but an opponent can easily foil your draw by pushing your arm against your body. Even if you step back with the gun side, you still present the arm across the body.

Also when you draw you tend to muzzle sweep everyone to your left. Kinda difficult to train that way.

And if you have an opponent within arms reach and need to shoot, you simply cannot unless you swing the gun across the front of your body. It is very slow and easy to defeat.

I did not come to these conclusions casually either. I have gone through training attempting each carry mode. As a armed bodyguard, I like to carry in a shoulder holster if I will be driving. However, I also carry strong side 3 o'clock because thats the best place for carry for decisive action, IMO.

And remember, these are all just opinions.

jbirds1210 wrote:Do you use a retention strap or a tight fitting holster?

My usual carry holster does not have a retention strap, but does hold the gun firmly to the point it can be turned upside down and shaken without the weapon falling out. This can be achieved even without my body being pressed up against it. Strangely enogh, when I worked in a position that required me to carry in uniform, I did have a retention strap and would not have had it any other way. While I was trained in proper weapons retention, there were many situations that required the use of both arms while surrounded by people. I realize that this can happen to the "average joe" on the street, but it is not as likely. I did prefer the strap in these situations.

I understand that this decision is up to the individual and it depends on that indivuals comfort level and amount of training. Vendors have both styles on the shelf, so I will assume there are people buying both.......I was just wondering if a great deal of peopledo find it comfortable to carry without straps. I realize that either way is both right and wrong dependent on opinions.

Thumb strap at least. Gravity is not all that can make a gun come out. Why leave to to chance?

Photoman wrote:What is your reasoning for retention with concealed carry?

To keep your gun in the holster and not yanked out by a seat belt, or someone grabbing it in a struggle, or any other of the hundreds of reasons I have actually seen them end up not in the holster.

I cannot take credit for this, it was taught to me by Max Joesph of Tactical Firearms Training Team

I hope I do it justice.

Step 1 is called "slap, grip and unsnap" There is a little differene between the steps as you learn them and as you advance, but only in this step. A person beginning should practice with using one step at a time, then adding each successive step.

I always start with the hands up and palms out position. This is non threatening, but you can launch a physical defense if needed.



In step 1, you slap your belt buckle with your weak hand and grab it. This insures that you KEEP YOUR HAND FROM IN FRONT OF THE MUZZLE. You then obtain a good shooters grip with the shooting hand, and unsnap your retention (you DO have retention on your holster, right?)

As you advence in this you will have built the muscle memory to keep your off hand away, and you can transition to keeping it in front of your chest. This allows you to parry away any attack from the front.

You can also move your feet into position.





Step 2 is clear leather (yes, some of us oldies still use leather) and the weapon turns horizontal and stays in close to the body, right over the holster.

You can shoot from this position if needed.





In step 3 the gun hand pushes the gun forward, and once the muzzle clears the plane of the body, the weak side hand comes up into the two handed grip, and you begin isometric tension. (the pic flashed at an odd time. I am not really moving the gun down from position 2. It comes straight up and out, like a straight punch. My hands came together closer into my body)



In step 4 you gain sight alignment and sight picture as the weapon punches into position.



Step 5 is fire and follow through.



This is in no way the only or best draw. It is "A" draw. It works for me, under stress in a high-level training environment. YMMV