TexasCHLforum.com

glock75 wrote:I have been reading about this group that offers experts and attorney for self defense shootings for a yearly fee. Marty Hayes is the main guy and Massad Ayoob is one of the experts.

http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/home" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A point of clarification: If I understand their literature correctly, they do NOT offer an ATTORNEY for your primary defense. (They do apparently offer $5,000 towards an attorney). What they do offer is expert (as in use of force, self-defense law, etc) advice and access to expert witnesses to your attorney. Marty Hayes, Ayoob, and John Farnam are some of the people available for this.

I noted one of their articles in this post http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... se#p449807" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, and if you read the article linked there, you will see that the guy on trial had his own lawyer, but the ACLDN provided advice and expert witnesses.

So ACLDN is not meant to replace your lawyer or [pre-paid legal], if you have it -- it is in addition to, or further resources for, your own attorney.

Hi Brian,

Thanks for the additional info -- actual specifics help.

I have to say that these two statements:

1. All of the attorneys that have spoken in our class have repeated that they are not pre-paid legal and are in fact on retainer.

A. What is Covered, ALL charges for fees for attorney time in connection with the Firm's representaion of Client in any criminal procedure in the Sate of Texas arising from the client's use of his or her handgun.

are not logically reconcilable in my mind unless "pre-paid" and "retainer" mean something very different from what I think they do. The term "Micro-Retainer" is also troublesome. If you get all your lawyer time paid for with the $120/year premium, then it seems to me it is "pre-paid" regardless of what they said in the class (and that would be troublesome also). If they are claiming it is a retainer because you have to pay extra for expert witnesses and all that, that seems a little...indirect.

This sentence also makes me wonder:

Client hereby employs and retains the Firm for representaion and the Firm hereby accepts this employement, for the limited purpose set out in the contract.

Are you required to use the [pre-paid legal] attorney if you get coverage from [pre-paid legal]? Are you required to use the [pre-paid legal] attorney exclusively? I doubt any attorney wants his client bringing in other attorneys on his own, but if you decide your attorney is a dolt, are you free to give him the boot, or do you have to stick with him (and pay for anything the "retainer" doesn't cover)?

And finally:

What is NOT covered, Any expenses associated with investigators, expert wtnesses, witnesses, or other persons necessary to assist in the defense of the case, bail bonds, or other court fees, in any.

This would not be a trivial cost, and I would think that if your self-defense shooting were "messy enough" that you are facing charges over it, you are going to be needing more than just your attorney's time. The Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network LLC addresses some of this "gap", but doesn't look like to me the cover full freight on it either.

juggernaut wrote:

If it's not "pre paid legal" regulated by TDLR then what is it?

...

Interestingly enough, the link provided goes to "For-Profit Legal Service Contracts," which per the FAQs do NOT include "pre-paid legal services." However according to the FAQs at the link, both For-Profit Legal Service Contracts and pre-paid legal services are regulated (in Texas) by the Occupations Code. For whatever that is worth.

I wonder if the reason there seems to be an effort to not be labeled "pre-paid legal" has anything to do with the history of the company known as "Pre-Paid Legal Services, Inc.". Per the Wikipedia entry (caveat as necessary), this company pioneered pre-paid legal services, but has also had some trouble with various attorney generals and the SEC. I could understand not wanting to be mistaken for a particular company.

Mr. Cotton has provided some pretty clear cut definitions. Retainer = attorney works until the money runs out. Pre-paid = attorney takes flat fee per time period, works as required (and per what's in the contract.)

So which is [pre-paid legal]? Certainly sounds pre-paid-ish. I am interested to see how this comes out.

Links to previous discussions of this here:

FAQ: Lawyers, PrePaid Legal, CHL Insurance

I know one guy who has this type of pre-paid legal service (i.e. for SD shootings); he likes it a lot because he has used prepaid legal services in his business and thinks it saved him a bundle. To my knowledge, he has never had to use the SD version. I don't know which company he went with.