TexasCHLforum.com

Bitter Clinger wrote:
Unfortunately, its not just all about the cost. Some shooters care about other parameters, such as reliability and accuracy.

Keep running steel as long as you know how to find cover. Here are the reliability results (excerpts) from that same study:



I would expect that a carbine shooting brass cased, copper jacketed lead to last at least ~20,000 rounds before needing re-barreling.

Anyway, like I said, not my problem.

15 failures out of 10,000... for half the cost... doesn't seem to be that bad to me. As far as "finding cover", this is for range use, not defensive use. And accuracy... If it stays within 4-5 MOA, good enough for general range use. I'm not trying to make one ragged hole with a red dot equipped AR-15. Let's not forget that these guys were hammering through the rounds which is going to accelerate wear... I bet that the average shooter will get more than 6,000 rounds out of the barrel shooting the cheap stuff.

And again, not all steel is equal... big difference between Tula and Hornady! Also, you might expect your barrel to last that long on brass cased ammo, but a person who shoots a lot and will actually hit that 20,000 round mark can do it more economically by shooting steel and replacing the barrel when needed!

DLuke00 wrote:Thank you all for you responses!!! The range where I shoot doesn't allow steel so that's out. I really appreciate y'alls advice and will consider all comments to make my decision. Thanks y'all

Are you shooting indoors? Do they not allow steel projectiles, or steel case? Big difference between the two...

Bitter Clinger wrote:

cyphertext wrote:

Bitter Clinger wrote:

cyphertext wrote:

Bitter Clinger wrote:

cyphertext wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote:I would amend the above to make sure to only buy brass-cased ammo. I know that plenty of people shoot the steel-cased varnished stuff, but the .223/5.56 case doesn't have enough taper to use that kind of ammo reliably. I've seen WAY too many fired steel cases stuck in AR barrels that wouldn't extract for love or money......some times so badly that running a rod down the barrel and trying to tap the case out won't remove it. Then you need a gunsmith with a chamber reamer. Brass cases OTH have natural lubricity and are very good at extracting cleanly.

Steel cased ammo is fine for AK pattern rifles because the case has a pronounced taper and extracts easily.

I'm going to respectfully disagree... while this was true in the past, steel cased ammo today is no longer covered in lacquer. Also, back when folks would get steel cases stuck in the chamber, most were shooting 20" rifles. With a carbine length gas system, and the higher pressures involved, reliable extraction can be achieved using steel cased ammo. Add in the O-ring enhanced extractor and I doubt you will have any issues.

And remember, not all steel cased ammo is created equally... there is a big difference between Tula and Hornady Steel Match, and a price difference that matches as well.

We have also found that the Russian steel cased ammo does not use the more costly copper jacketed lead bullets. The bullets appear to be copper plated only and the bullet itself appears to have iron mixed in - if you check you will find that the bullets are magnetic. The use of these rounds will lead to early barrel replacement.

I saw that report from Lucky Gunner... but I don't shoot at the same rate that they do... and have seen other reports that suggest a different theory on the barrel wear, that it is actually the propellant and not the bi-metal jacket that wears the barrel. But in either case, one can shoot that stuff and replace a barrel with the savings over brass and still come out ahead.

Go ahead and strip your rifling out prematurely, not my problem.

The barrel on an AR is consumable and easily replaced. When you can shoot steel cased ammo and have money from the savings to replace the barrel and still be ahead... well, I don't see that as a problem.

Maybe this will help...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5ZB3UfG960

I don't need YouTube, I prefer real life experience. But thanks anyway, if it makes you feel better then I'm satisfied.

Whatever...

The Annoyed Man wrote:

cyphertext wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote:I would amend the above to make sure to only buy brass-cased ammo. I know that plenty of people shoot the steel-cased varnished stuff, but the .223/5.56 case doesn't have enough taper to use that kind of ammo reliably. I've seen WAY too many fired steel cases stuck in AR barrels that wouldn't extract for love or money......some times so badly that running a rod down the barrel and trying to tap the case out won't remove it. Then you need a gunsmith with a chamber reamer. Brass cases OTH have natural lubricity and are very good at extracting cleanly.

Steel cased ammo is fine for AK pattern rifles because the case has a pronounced taper and extracts easily.

I'm going to respectfully disagree... while this was true in the past, steel cased ammo today is no longer covered in lacquer. Also, back when folks would get steel cases stuck in the chamber, most were shooting 20" rifles. With a carbine length gas system, and the higher pressures involved, reliable extraction can be achieved using steel cased ammo. Add in the O-ring enhanced extractor and I doubt you will have any issues.

And remember, not all steel cased ammo is created equally... there is a big difference between Tula and Hornady Steel Match, and a price difference that matches as well.

I have no experience with the Hornady steel case ammo specifically, but I can tell you that every single AR I've ever seen with a stuck steel case that wouldn't extract, was a 16" carbine, and the ammo was cheap Russian stuff. Carbine length gas system is assumed for most or all of them, since, (A) that would be statistically most likely, and (B) at least to MY eyes, the people I saw shooting carbines that got stuck were did not appear to be all that sophisticated about ARs, and might not have known that they could buy/build a carbine with a mid-length gas system. I'm sure it does happen to owners of ARs in other lengths, but I have personally only seen it happen to carbines.

Interesting as I have shot a ton of the cheap stuff as well as the Hornady and have never experienced an issue. The video I posted above attributes the stuck cases in carbines to being overgassed and starting to extract before the steel has had a chance to cool.

Bitter Clinger wrote:

cyphertext wrote:

Bitter Clinger wrote:

cyphertext wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote:I would amend the above to make sure to only buy brass-cased ammo. I know that plenty of people shoot the steel-cased varnished stuff, but the .223/5.56 case doesn't have enough taper to use that kind of ammo reliably. I've seen WAY too many fired steel cases stuck in AR barrels that wouldn't extract for love or money......some times so badly that running a rod down the barrel and trying to tap the case out won't remove it. Then you need a gunsmith with a chamber reamer. Brass cases OTH have natural lubricity and are very good at extracting cleanly.

Steel cased ammo is fine for AK pattern rifles because the case has a pronounced taper and extracts easily.

I'm going to respectfully disagree... while this was true in the past, steel cased ammo today is no longer covered in lacquer. Also, back when folks would get steel cases stuck in the chamber, most were shooting 20" rifles. With a carbine length gas system, and the higher pressures involved, reliable extraction can be achieved using steel cased ammo. Add in the O-ring enhanced extractor and I doubt you will have any issues.

And remember, not all steel cased ammo is created equally... there is a big difference between Tula and Hornady Steel Match, and a price difference that matches as well.

We have also found that the Russian steel cased ammo does not use the more costly copper jacketed lead bullets. The bullets appear to be copper plated only and the bullet itself appears to have iron mixed in - if you check you will find that the bullets are magnetic. The use of these rounds will lead to early barrel replacement.

I saw that report from Lucky Gunner... but I don't shoot at the same rate that they do... and have seen other reports that suggest a different theory on the barrel wear, that it is actually the propellant and not the bi-metal jacket that wears the barrel. But in either case, one can shoot that stuff and replace a barrel with the savings over brass and still come out ahead.

Go ahead and strip your rifling out prematurely, not my problem.

The barrel on an AR is consumable and easily replaced. When you can shoot steel cased ammo and have money from the savings to replace the barrel and still be ahead... well, I don't see that as a problem.

Maybe this will help...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5ZB3UfG960

Bitter Clinger wrote:

cyphertext wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote:I would amend the above to make sure to only buy brass-cased ammo. I know that plenty of people shoot the steel-cased varnished stuff, but the .223/5.56 case doesn't have enough taper to use that kind of ammo reliably. I've seen WAY too many fired steel cases stuck in AR barrels that wouldn't extract for love or money......some times so badly that running a rod down the barrel and trying to tap the case out won't remove it. Then you need a gunsmith with a chamber reamer. Brass cases OTH have natural lubricity and are very good at extracting cleanly.

Steel cased ammo is fine for AK pattern rifles because the case has a pronounced taper and extracts easily.

I'm going to respectfully disagree... while this was true in the past, steel cased ammo today is no longer covered in lacquer. Also, back when folks would get steel cases stuck in the chamber, most were shooting 20" rifles. With a carbine length gas system, and the higher pressures involved, reliable extraction can be achieved using steel cased ammo. Add in the O-ring enhanced extractor and I doubt you will have any issues.

And remember, not all steel cased ammo is created equally... there is a big difference between Tula and Hornady Steel Match, and a price difference that matches as well.

We have also found that the Russian steel cased ammo does not use the more costly copper jacketed lead bullets. The bullets appear to be copper plated only and the bullet itself appears to have iron mixed in - if you check you will find that the bullets are magnetic. The use of these rounds will lead to early barrel replacement.

I saw that report from Lucky Gunner... but I don't shoot at the same rate that they do... and have seen other reports that suggest a different theory on the barrel wear, that it is actually the propellant and not the bi-metal jacket that wears the barrel. But in either case, one can shoot that stuff and replace a barrel with the savings over brass and still come out ahead.

The Annoyed Man wrote:I would amend the above to make sure to only buy brass-cased ammo. I know that plenty of people shoot the steel-cased varnished stuff, but the .223/5.56 case doesn't have enough taper to use that kind of ammo reliably. I've seen WAY too many fired steel cases stuck in AR barrels that wouldn't extract for love or money......some times so badly that running a rod down the barrel and trying to tap the case out won't remove it. Then you need a gunsmith with a chamber reamer. Brass cases OTH have natural lubricity and are very good at extracting cleanly.

Steel cased ammo is fine for AK pattern rifles because the case has a pronounced taper and extracts easily.

I'm going to respectfully disagree... while this was true in the past, steel cased ammo today is no longer covered in lacquer. Also, back when folks would get steel cases stuck in the chamber, most were shooting 20" rifles. With a carbine length gas system, and the higher pressures involved, reliable extraction can be achieved using steel cased ammo. Add in the O-ring enhanced extractor and I doubt you will have any issues.

And remember, not all steel cased ammo is created equally... there is a big difference between Tula and Hornady Steel Match, and a price difference that matches as well.