TexasCHLforum.com

The Annoyed Man wrote: While I agree that it is possibly unlikely that I would need to expend all 16 rounds in my G19 in order to affect a stop, it is also possible that I might—under the stress of the situation—shoot to slide lock and find myself winchester on ammo. I hope that I’d have more control than that, but I’ve never been in a gunfight, and I won’t know for absolute certain how I’d respond until the day it happens—which I pray never comes. I almost always carry 2 spare mags with any gun I carry. I don’t carry that many because I expect to expend 46 rounds in a fight. I carry them because (1) I may wish to perform an administrative reload after the shooting stops, and (2) I acknowledge the possibility, however remote, of a magazine-related malfunction. I carry 2 spare mags even with low cap guns like my G43, and I carry 2 speedloaders or speedstrips with a revolver.

This is precisely why I carry 50 rounds: 17+1 and two spare 16 round magazines. Karl Rehn, multi-Grand Master USPSA, recommends loading double-stack magazines with one less than the maximum as it makes them easier to properly seat while under stress. Training and USPSA competition has shown this to work well for me. One of the main reasons I chose the S&W M&P9 M2.0 5" as my one pistol I shoot well is its 17+1 capacity. Then two spare for the reasons Chris stated, each loaded one down. 50 is not a magic number of rounds, it just happened as a result of other decisions.

I am a coin holder in KR Training's Defensive Pistol Skills Program https://www.krtraining.com/defensivepis ... ogram.html, which includes multiple force-on-force classes, vehicle/parking lot fighting, and trips through the shoot house. Additionally, I've trained on force-on-force, managing unknow contacts, and fighting from, around, and into vehicles with John Murphy, Chuck Haggard, and Hock Hochheim. All that to say I agree with those who have stated the importance of realistic training that forces you to think and decide under stress.

Two books I recommend that help us understand the physiological and psychological stresses of a gun fight are On Combat and On Killing by retired LTC Dave Grossman.
https://www.amazon.com/Combat-Psycholog ... 0964920549
https://www.amazon.com/Killing-Psycholo ... 0316040932

carlson1 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:16 pm I have bounced from Glock to 1911. I love the 1911 platform for decades, but the round count was always a concern in my little feeble mind. I also love my revolvers. I finally landed (at least I hope I have) on the Wilson Combat EDC X9. It is like the offspring of a Glock 19 and a Colt Commander 1911. It is the 1911 platform with 15 or 18 round magazines. I think a spare magazine is great to fix a malfunction quickly. It sure is nice to just have one pistol without carrying three magazines.

I carry a 17+1 M&P9 M2.0 5" that is very similar in dimensions to the 1911A1 I carried in the 1st Cavalry Division. I also carry two spare magazines because I can easily do so without sacrificing OC spray, IFAK, or flashlight. I want to be able to replace one faulty magazine and still have a fresh one with which to reload after the fight. Works for me.

Real life gun fight on video. Note the number of misses. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPGXrMVLJVM

We must each decide for ourselves which risks we are willing to manage and which benefits matter most to us.

Ref: Rangemaster Firearms Instructor Development Couse Student Manual, Revised Dec 2020, Tom Givens.
As of December 2020, 68 of Tom's students, that he knows of, have been involved in defensive encounters. 65 wins, 0 loses, 3 forfeits. The 3 forfeits were not carrying their guns and died in the encounter. Of these 65 wins, none reloaded during the fight although one shot to slide-lock.

John Correia (Active Self Protection) has viewed over 30,000 real life incidents of violence. He has not seen a civilian reload that affected the outcome of the fight.

This seems to indicate that we will win or lose the fight with the ammunition in our gun when the fight starts.

Correia further says that he is seeing multiple attackers with increasing frequency.

John Daub, https://blog.hsoi.com/2013/07/11/minimu ... ve-pistol/, 7/11/2013.

... Paul Ford (former Austin Police SWAT member). Paul pointed out that in a gunfight you will do about 70% of your worst day at the range. Think about that: take your worst day (under the ideal circumstances of the range), and now make it a lot worse, and that’s how you’ll do.

Let's take a simplified, worst case scenario.

We know that handguns suck at stopping people. Let's say you can consistently hit the high, center chest of the photo-realistic target two out of three times at 5 yards in three seconds from concealment, on your best day on the range. Let's say it's 1 out of three on your worst day at the range. Using Paul Ford's 70%, this indicates you may likely miss all of your shots in your gunfight.

Let's say that through competent training and diligent practice, you manage to consistently get 4 high-center chest hits on your worst day. Using Paul Ford's 70%, that comes out to roughly 3 hits and one miss in your hypothetical gunfight. Let's say that those three hits stop your attacker. But wait, dude has three buddies. That's 4 shots to stop dude, and 12 to stop his buddies.

How many attackers, at your current skill level, can you reasonably expect to handle with the ammunition in your gun.

I've been tested and timed by Karl Rehn, John Daub, Lee Weems, John Corriea, and Tom Givens. I know my worst and best. I compete in USPSA matches with my EDC gear. I have a decent measure of how many attackers I can handle with the 17+1 in my M&P. My sons carry a minimum of 15+1.

I can't, and won't attempt to, tell you how much ammunition is enough for you. I will say that through training, testing, and competing you can get an idea of your capabilities which will inform your decision of how much ammunition is enough for you.