TexasCHLforum.com

Charles L. Cotton wrote:

ShootDontTalk wrote:I agree about the bad tactics. No question. My comment is that the assumption here is that they did something that deserved arrest. Would it be logical then to assume that no PD has ever made a bad arrest? Ever? That conclusion could be disproven if more video of the incident is released. Or is that simply not possible?

Since we agree that the tactics are horrible, I won't discuss that issue. (Even OCT claims to have cut all ties to OCTC because their tactics harm the issue.)

My posts make it very clear that I hate bad COPS and bad DA's/ADA's (fellow attorneys). I also hate punks who think they are above the law and can do anything they wish, regardless how it impacts others. There are people on the Forum who hate all COPS and believe they are all unethical and engage in unlawful or unconstitutional acts. That's so far outside of reality that nothing I or anyone else can say will change their minds. (Ironically, most of them are either criminals or want-to-be criminals and/or anarchists.)

The vast majority of LEO's are good, honorable people. Very few would intentionally make a bad arrest or falsify evidence or testimony. There does seem to be a much more "authoritative" approach to law enforcement where street COPs are far less patient, cordial and deferential than in past years. This is not the individual officer's fault; it is the result of a major shift in training that teaches cadets that they "are the pointy end of the spear." I and most other older LEOs and former LEOs think this is a huge mistake and I believe the decline in support and trust of law enforcement personnel in general is the result of this very ill-advised change in training and policies. It is part of what I and many others mean when we refer to the militarization of law enforcement. While it involves military equipment and tactics, it's the change in officers' understanding of their mission that is most damaging. (I would note that Texas DPS has not gone this route and Troopers still represent a kinder, friendlier approach to law enforcement. This is what I call the "Joe Forrester Approach.")

All that said, the vast majority of officers are not going to make a bogus arrest. This is even more true when the person arrested is known to be someone who revels being in the media spotlight. Therefore, I and most people do assume that when anyone is arrested it was a lawful arrest, unless there is unbiased evidence to the contrary. I don't assume they are guilty of the crime, but I do assume that the officer had probable cause to believe a crime had been committed. In the case at issue, viewing the video raises my opinion from the level of an assumption to being convinced the arrest was both lawful and justified from an ethical perspective. I suspect he even wanted to get arrested.

As others have pointed out, and as noted in the TV news report, one can video a traffic stop without being disruptive and others did so on that very night. Shouting at officers or to drivers and passengers during a traffic stop is, in my view, interfering with the lawful act of a peace officer. I'll go one step further. If such an incident resulted in an officer being murdered by someone in a car he had stopped because the officer was distracted by stunts like the one depicted in the video, then I think everyone involved should be charged with and convicted of felony murder.

The Texas Legislature should pass a law that requires all LEO vehicles to have dash cameras and all uniformed officers to wear body cameras. Such practices will protect good COPs while deterring or identifying bad COPs. It's a win-win situation with a relatively small price tag.

Chas.

ShootDontTalk wrote:I agree about the bad tactics. No question. My comment is that the assumption here is that they did something that deserved arrest. Would it be logical then to assume that no PD has ever made a bad arrest? Ever? That conclusion could be disproven if more video of the incident is released. Or is that simply not possible?

Remember the fellow in the wheelchair who was declared worthy of being shot to death for charging a DPD officer? Seems a lot of people ended up with egg on their faces and one or two ended up in prison when all the facts (and video) came out. Not suggesting that happened here, but then I haven't seen all of the video yet. So I will wait to assume that what they did caused the arrest.

ShootDontTalk wrote:Then perhaps you won't mind my adjusting the headline:

OCTC President and Wife....Are Terminally Stupid for Bad Political Tactics

I don't doubt the sincerity of your claims, but seriously, read through this thread and see what it sounds like. Nothing personal intended here. Is the subject here their tactics, or their arrest?

ShootDontTalk wrote:I find it extremely disappointing that many regulars on this forum simply cannot resist judging people with whom they disagree without a moment of court time or a shred of evidence being presented. It is often stated here that, in effect, being arrested for something equates to being found guilty of something. I regularly read some post here that as a CHL you may not be convicted for doing anything illegal, but "you may not avoid the ride." On this forum, it seems to me, that is all the proof that is needed.

Despite whether any of us like someone or agree with their activities, they deserve a fair day in court before a jury of their peers - something all of you would demand were you in their shoes. And basing any supposition of guilt or innocence on an obviously edited video (which will never be allowed to be admitted into evidence as is) released to the media by a PD on the night of an event, is a foolhardy endeavor IMHO. Once again, I think I will reserve judgement until all the facts are in and the jury speaks - or not. Same as I hope you would do for me.

Keith B wrote: Very well said Mr. Heath.

G.A. Heath wrote:In the end it really doesn't matter if the arrest was lawful or not, the antis have their anti-gun news piece to attack Open Carry specifically and gun rights in general. If you are going to be an advocate for something and your in a leadership position relating to it then you have to focus strictly on that subject. Allowing yourself to get sidetracked or try to combine it with something else has a great chance of damaging your efforts.

Lets look at OC leadership in Texas and see what is happening:

CJ Grisham (OCT): Convicted, and appealing his case relating to the arrest relating to the open carry of an AR15 (charge was relating to the interference with a police officers duties). OCed in Oklahoma in apparent violation of Oklahoma law, claims he may or may not have a license, the gun may or may not have been real.

Cory Watkins (OCTC): As noted above he was recently arrested for interfering with a traffic stop, he was open carrying a replica black powder revolver when arrested.

Murdoch Pizgatti (CATI): Not his legal name, operates under this alias for reasons known to himself and friends. Not much is known outside of the fact he is also a founder of DontComply.com and is in a leadership role there as well. Come And Take it as well as DontComply.com are closely linked. He has been arrested on weapons related charges, the validity and status/disposition of which is unknown at this time.

Pastor Terry Holcom (Texas Carry): Aside from a strong dislike (hate may be more like it) of the NRA and TSRA he appears to be the most reasonable choice for someone in a leadership role in the Open Carry movement. He was arrested at the capital in Austin, the charges were later dropped.

If you will notice there is a pattern regarding people in leadership positions within the OC movement, there are a few people I have not mentioned but you get the point. Leaders need to be above the arrests, they need to quit doing things that could get them arrested, and most importantly they need to lead from somewhere outside of a jail cell or court room.

Beiruty wrote:Regardless of bad tactics, is the arrest lawful?