Search found 8 matches

by jbarn
Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:43 am
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: should we report a place to TABC?
Replies: 46
Views: 7341

Re: should we report a place to TABC?

srothstein wrote:Yes, you would be charged under the Penal Code section 46.035. I am well aware of the definition of premises under the Penal Code section that says that this is not a premise. But I am also aware of the definition of a licensed premise under the Alcoholic Beverage Code. There premises is different, as it says: "Sec. 11.49. PREMISES DEFINED; DESIGNATION OF LICENSED PREMISES. (a) In this code, "premises" means the grounds and all buildings, vehicles, and appurtenances pertaining to the grounds, including any adjacent premises if they are directly or indirectly under the control of the same person."
This seems really simple for me. 46.035 says, in part, that one commits an offense if he carries on the premises of a 51% location. (Paraphrased for brevity) 46.035 also says that IN THIS SECTION, premises means a building or portion of a building. It does not say that premises has the definition of the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Code. It does not say premises has the definition of penal code 46.02. (At least that law is in the same code)

It does not matter what the ABC code defines for licensing businesses.
I agree with you that the charge should never be made or should be thrown out by the court. I am just not willing to bet that the courts would agree.
I would. The law is crystal clear to me.
EDIT: I just thought about one other point to consider. One of the points the courts would consider is that generally, one law cannot make another law senseless. When that happens the courts will try to look at the intent of the legislature. Since TABC can issue a 51% license to a location that has no buildings at all, then the definitions of premises in the ABC makes the definition of premises senseless. The intent of the legislature is to not allow carrying in locations that are primarily sales of alcoholic beverages for on premises consumption. It would really depend on the specifics of the case making it to the court. If the premises had a building with a small area of tables on the sidewalk, the court might say the law really did mean just the building. If the licensed premise had no buildings but sold to an outdoor crowd walking around, it might rule the intent was to make the entire grounds off limits.
The laws are not conflicting. 46.035 is specific. Had they intended a different definition than that given in 46.035, they could have written it like 46.03 for schools. In that section, the legislators showed their intent for schools by writing that off limits were any building or grounds where a school sponsored event is taking place is off limits. That same section uses the term premises to describe other off limits.

Had the legislature meant for 51% locations to use a different standard, they would have referenced the TABC code, or even used the phrase, "building or grounds". They did not. They used a word that is defined right there in that section of law.

Using the logic that some other definition might apply could also extend to the definition of premises in 46.02 which includes real property. Under your logic, a person carrying in nis car on a professional sporting event parking light might be charged because elsewhere in chapter 46 premises includes parking lots.
by jbarn
Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:00 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: should we report a place to TABC?
Replies: 46
Views: 7341

Re: should we report a place to TABC?

srothstein wrote:Perhaps I can clear this up a little bit. I cna even tell how the TABC Agents are trained, or were in 2009.

First, the fair is a 51% location for the whole grounds. There is only one license issued and it covers the whole grounds. It is for a vendor who only sells alcoholic beverages. When he applied for the license, he properly answered the question on percentage of sales from alcoholic beverages as more than 51% of his sales. TABC determined thus that it was a 51% location. If you do a search on this topic, we have pointed it out before for bowling alleys and other locations. A vendor can be a 51% vendor and it would cover the whole property unless he marked off parts of it on the license application.

A search of the TABC database just now shows that the license has been renewed. I would guess that the application was submitted before the expiration date and the earlier searches just happened to be within that time period. TABC has a policy that they will allow a person to continue to use the license while it is expired if the renewal has been received in a timely fashion. This helps not penalize people for TABC taking their time with an application.

There is a very gray area of the law caused by the conflict between the Penal Code and Alcoholic Beverage Code on the definition of a premises. TABC agents are taught both definitions in class and the conflict is brought up for them. Case law shows that the courts tend to go by the TABC definition so far, but that is all from before the CHL law was passed. Many people have been convicted of unlawfully carrying on a licensed premise for having a gun in their car in the parking lot. This was also brought up in class. When I taught class, I would then recommend that the agent keep both definitions in mind and make up their own mind on cases. I also recommended that they keep my policy of trying to avoid seeing any cases in appellate court styled as Rothstein v. anyone or anyone v. Rothstein. When I left, the primary instructor was also very pro-gun, though the director of the academy was more neutral on the issue.

Given that last policy, I recommend that no one here test this area of the law. I am fairly convinced that the courts would go with the Penal Code, but I cannot guarantee it. I am also convinced that this is a losing area for us. If we were to win in court, I believe the legislature would quickly change the definition of premises and it would not change in our favor.
Thank you. Can you tell me what exact law one might be charged with violating for having a handgun under a CHL outside of a building or portion of a building that has a 51% license?
by jbarn
Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:40 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: should we report a place to TABC?
Replies: 46
Views: 7341

Re: should we report a place to TABC?

Keith B wrote:
jbarn wrote:
Keith B wrote:A-R, this a grey areaes define premiknowingefined by the license holder to dispense alcohol when they apply for the license, and that can be the entire grounds and parking lot. And, if enforcement is done on a 51% violation, it will probably be done by a TABC officer and not another LEO.

SO, while you may end up technically beating the rap on the definition of premise under 46.035, you may not beat the ride. IMO it's best to abide by the broader definition to make sure all laws are adhered to.
Any enforcement of 51% has to be done under penal code 46.035. That is where the law is located. TABC officers are Peace Officers and take the same TCLEOSE/TCOLE test as all other peace officers. I cannot Imagine a TABC officer not knowing PC 46.035

I worry about that about as much as I do a cop not knowing a CHL allows me to carry a handgun at the mall.
They may know 46.035, but the rub will be the difference in what they are taught to enforce as 'premise' vs premise defined in 46.035. I don't know that many field officers who are going to sit down during the incident and look at the full details of the law and make the call. They will more than likely cite the person under the definition they are used to and let the DA or Judge make the legal call.
I just disagree.
by jbarn
Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:46 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: should we report a place to TABC?
Replies: 46
Views: 7341

Re: should we report a place to TABC?

Keith B wrote:A-R, this a grey areaes define premiknowingefined by the license holder to dispense alcohol when they apply for the license, and that can be the entire grounds and parking lot. And, if enforcement is done on a 51% violation, it will probably be done by a TABC officer and not another LEO.

SO, while you may end up technically beating the rap on the definition of premise under 46.035, you may not beat the ride. IMO it's best to abide by the broader definition to make sure all laws are adhered to.
Any enforcement of 51% has to be done under penal code 46.035. That is where the law is located. TABC officers are Peace Officers and take the same TCLEOSE/TCOLE test as all other peace officers. I cannot Imagine a TABC officer not knowing PC 46.035

I worry about that about as much as I do a cop not knowing a CHL allows me to carry a handgun at the mall.
by jbarn
Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:58 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: should we report a place to TABC?
Replies: 46
Views: 7341

Re: should we report a place to TABC?

Keith B wrote:
corbmonster wrote:Sherwood Forrest in McDade has 51% signs by the entrance. 1) They are expired. 2) They are black, not red. 3) Sherwood forest is not a building at all, but open grounds (I've been told that 51% only applies to a (1) building, not an open area). 4) If you look up the license on TABC it doesn't say sherwood forest is the owner. It says the owner is "RENAISSANCE BEVERAGE COMPANY LLC". If you Google who that is, it is a beverage import / export llc. based out of Florida, and does not have a TX office according to the web site. Something does not add up here. I've looked all over the Sherwood Forrest web site and don't see any reference to ren fair bev co. So, should they be reported?

TABC Liscense: BG742408
TABC Liscence search page: http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/PublicInquiry/Status.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ren. bev. co. website: http://renaissancebeverage.com/1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sherwood forest website: http://www.sherwoodforestfaire.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The link you quoted is for Renaissance Beverage Importers out of Florida, not Renaissance Beverage, LLC http://www.linkedin.com/company/renaiss ... ompany-llc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As for the expired license, it is very possible they have applied for and received a renewal and the database has not been updated.

And as for 'disenfranchising', it is very common for a concession company to be formed separately from the main venue. Bass Hall and the Kimbal Art Museum in Fort Worth are just a couple of examples where the concessionaire is separate and due to the level of alcohol revenue the license issued is RED and makes the whole place off limits to carry.

And as stated above, for the liquor license it includes buildings, grounds and parking lots if the license holder requested patrons to be able to drink in those locations when applying for the license.

In the case of this location because of the way the license holder is separate from the main company they have no choice but to put up the 51% sign. I would report them for having an all black sign though if the large 51% is not in red.
Excellent description.... Just for an interesting point I'd point out the violation for carrying at a 51% location is only for the premises. Penal code 46.035. Even if the Grounds are licensed, the only violation for a CHL holder is only when on the premises. 46.035 defines premises as a building or portion of a building. (Keith, I realize you know that, I state it more for the OP)
by jbarn
Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:35 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: should we report a place to TABC?
Replies: 46
Views: 7341

Re: should we report a place to TABC?

corbmonster wrote:Well it's the principle that they are trying to disenfranchise and shut out perfectly fine law abiding citizens. That's what bothers me.
Disenfranchise? No law prevents you from carrying past a 51% sign.
by jbarn
Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:32 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: should we report a place to TABC?
Replies: 46
Views: 7341

Re: should we report a place to TABC?

corbmonster wrote:If you look up the license it says the exp date is 2/18/2014. And it is pending renewal.
So the license expired, not the 51% sign. The license will tell you if it is sign=red or sign = blue
by jbarn
Wed Mar 26, 2014 7:34 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: should we report a place to TABC?
Replies: 46
Views: 7341

Re: should we report a place to TABC?

corbmonster wrote:Sherwood Forrest in McDade has 51% signs by the entrance. 1) They are expired. 2) They are black, not red. 3) Sherwood forest is not a building at all, but open grounds (I've been told that 51% only applies to a (1) building, not an open area). 4) If you look up the license on TABC it doesn't say sherwood forest is the owner. It says the owner is "RENAISSANCE BEVERAGE COMPANY LLC". If you Google who that is, it is a beverage import / export llc. based out of Florida, and does not have a TX office according to the web site. Something does not add up here. I've looked all over the Sherwood Forrest web site and don't see any reference to ren fair bev co. So, should they be reported?

TABC Liscense: BG742408
TABC Liscence search page: http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/PublicInquiry/Status.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ren. bev. co. website: http://renaissancebeverage.com/1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sherwood forest website: http://www.sherwoodforestfaire.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
51% signs don't expire. ??????

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