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nitrogen wrote:

KBCraig wrote:

nitrogen wrote:I didn't hear the machine at the door beep (I have some hearing impairment) but when I was putting my groceries in my car, one of the employees in the store ran up to me at my car, and prevented me from leaving until I "showed my receipt and items".

All the hypothetical discussions seem to have skipped this point: how did the employee prevent you from leaving?

The guy stood in front of me, about a few inches away from me, behind my car. Unless I was to shove him out of my way, unless I wanted to get in my car and drive over him, I couldn't leave.

I'm surprised at how this thread exploded since I posted it last night, so I'd like to post some of my thoughts on this whole episode.

I never really meant to get into the legal arguments here. I more wanted to let people know that it DOES happen.

My big problem is being treated like a crook. I will *NOT* stand for being treated like a thief; chased down. If a store employee reallly wants to do that, okay, I'll go back in the store, return all my items and go shop somewhere else. I think that's a much better way to show my displeasure.

Jason wrote: How did so many immediately jump to "physical restrainment?" There is no store out there with a policy to do so.

Store employees don't "chase" or "restrain" shoppers. Any that do, will find themselves out of a job for sure.

Kroger in Sachse, off of Highway 78 does. When I asked the manager, he told me that was his stores policy; to chase people down and keep them from leaving.

LEt me also say that at no time during this incident was I afraid for my life, and I did not feel justified in responding with force (deadly or otherwise)

I am going to Kroger corporate with this incident, and we'll see how they handle it.

And everyone, watch your tempers. I'm seeing some raised tempers and that's just not cool.

It sounds to me like you acted in a reasonable manner throughout what must have been a very annoying and unpleasant experience.

BrassMonkey wrote:It used to be called "Illegal Detainment" prior to, ummmm, 95 or so?

Sorry. Does not apply. You're not being kidnapped. In effect, you're being arrested. (Citizen's arrest) Big difference.

What would apply is an assault and battery charge against you if you escalated (to physical force) a lawful attempt by a loss prevention person to recover property that they had a reasonable belief that you possessed illegally. Even if it turns out that you did not illegally possess anything, the alarm going off is enough to give them a reasonable belief that you did. They won't know the facts until they investigate, which you should accept with grace as a peaceable citizen and CHL holder.

Furthermore, if you escalate the situation, you are no longer acting in lawful self defense per the use of force statutes.

fadlan12 wrote:Its funny, on another forum I frequent everyone went with Liberty and Brass Monkeys mindset. Here calls for cooperation are just as prevalent. I would probably cooperate but I would expect to be treated like a customer and not a criminal.

This topic has me wondering about a related issue: If you do get surrounded by employees and what if they notice your weapon and they attempt to disarm you. How far are you allowed to go to retain your weapon? Seems like this is the most dangerous situation and could have tragic results if store reps think they need to disarm you for their piece of mind.

If an employee ever "made" your weapon, there is NO WAY they would attempt to disarm you.

They'd have to be nuts.

If they did anything at all, they would just call a cop.

BrassMonkey wrote:one of the employees in the store ran up to me at my car, and prevented me from leaving

Sounds like detainment to me.

So? Did they grab you? Push you? Punch you? How did you handle it? Did you punch their lights out? Draw your weapon? Sue them? What?

jason wrote:How did so many immediately jump to "physical restrainment?" There is no store out there with a policy to do so.

Store employees don't "chase" or "restrain" shoppers. Any that do, will find themselves out of a job for sure.

I truly believe as CHL holders we have the responsible to prevent escalation of events if at all possible.

This all has the tone of conversations we probably all had as teenagers where someone would say, "Boy, if anyone ever tried that with me I'd kick their butt. You bet I would. Nobody had better ever try that with me, man."

It's been about 40 years since I've had that kind of a conversation.

Liberty wrote:

frankie_the_yankee wrote: So how many times have you been carjacked?

Never and and one reason is I believe is that I tolorate no nonsense on my way to my car.

Let me re-phrase my question. How many would-be carjackers have you fended off by tolerating no nonsense on the way to your car?

My own "belief", FWIW, is that no one has EVER tried or intended to carjack you.

frankie_the_yankee wrote: I think I can tell the difference between a panhandler, a carjacker, and a store employee who respectfully approaches me (as they have been trained to do) and engages me in conversation.

Liberty wrote:I can't !! they all look the same to me.

I suggest you try harder. You'd never want to shoot a panhandler or store employee by mistake, thinking they were a carjacker.

Nazrat wrote:Wow, I am amazed at this discourse.

Me too.

Frankly, I don't even believe most of it. It's just my guess mind you, but I think that in real life most people would respond in a civil manner to a polite request by a store employee, including most of the people on this forum.

BrassMonkey wrote:Call me a bad guy. Someone commits an act of battery against me, store employee or not. They are going down. There are no warnings. There is no I will give you to the count of three. The threat will be stopped. Period. Cite me, take me to jail. Whatever...

What "threat"?

"Excuse me sir. The inventory control alarm went off when you left the store. Could I please look in your bag to make sure everything was properly rung up?"

No store employee is going to commit an act of battery against you just because an alarm went off as you were walking out. (Now if someone actually saw you steal something that would be a different story, but we are assuming here that you are totally innocent.)

So it seems to me that you are getting all huffy over absolutely nothing.

I think it is safe to say that if you respond to the above with any sort of force, you will be taken to jail, and rightfully so.

You're carrying a gun in public. You have an obligation to AVOID conflicts. Don't go looking for them out of thin air.

Liberty wrote: Are we supposed to stop for a stranger when they verbally demand? or allow someone to physically stop us? I live in area where its almost impossible to get from the grocery store to the parking lot without being approached by bums or potential carjackers. To stop because a stranger insist on it seems to be a dangerous idea.

So how many times have you been carjacked?

From your statement above, it makes me wonder how you have managed to make it this far without being jacked up or whacked.

I think I can tell the difference between a panhandler, a carjacker, and a store employee who respectfully approaches me (as they have been trained to do) and engages me in conversation.

I would hope that you or anyone else who carries a gun in public can easily make those distinctions as well.

Liberty wrote:

frankie_the_yankee wrote:

Liberty wrote: If someone physically asaults me in a parking lot. I will respond as if I've been assaulted. I get aproached all the time in parking lots by strangers. I tell them loudly and firmly "NO!" and warn them not to aproach. If someone is wearing an apron doesn't make them not a carjacker or other type of criminal.

Sure, and if you misinterpret the legitimate actions of a store employee investigating a possible theft and respond with force, you can expect to go to jail.

I don't believe that an assault has much room for interpetation. They lay a hand on me its assault. If I don't have any goods that are stolen they have no legal reason to lay a hand on me. We all have a legal right and moral obligation to protect ourselves. There is know way I am going to engage in a conversation in a parking lot with a stranger. To do so is dangerous. I'd rather take my chances with the court system than the weirdos hanging around store parkinglots

See Charles' post above, with which I fully agree.

FWIW, when I'm leaving a store and an alarm goes off I usually stop, turn around, and try to catch the eye of an employee. Invariably, they simply wave me through and we're done.

Since I know I haven't stolen anything, I have nothing to worry about. Being a good guy (hopefully), I try to be nice to others whom I may run into. Since I'm carrying a gun, I would hate to get involved in some altercation over a silly misunderstanding.

Being nice goes a long way.

And I have no worries at all about being "assaulted" in a parking lot by a store employee. Store policy invariably instructs employees to be respectful when approaching people in that situation, precisely because they know full well that false alarms DO happen, and that checkout clerks somes forget to properly neutralize the RFID tags. So the idea that an employee is going to come charging out and put the grab on me is ludicrous.

What is far more likely is that, if they do anything at all, someone will approach me saying something like, "Excuse me sir. Blah, blah, blah....."

Not exactly something that justifies a rap in the mouth or any other kind of beligerent action. And no jury would interpret that as an "assault".

Of course you have rights. So does the other guy. Be a good guy. Be nice.

mikesrex wrote:while finishing up this chemical engineering degree. I work in a retail pharmacy with an alarm systems on the entrance/exit.

we have a strict policy to not pursue people who continue to exit after the buzzer goes off. The company probably has a couple of things in mind. First, the safety of our employees is not worth risking to get back a 10 dollar item. Also we can keep from upsetting legit customers due to chasing them down after a false alarm.

And that is your company's free choice.

Liberty wrote: If someone physically asaults me in a parking lot. I will respond as if I've been assaulted. I get aproached all the time in parking lots by strangers. I tell them loudly and firmly "NO!" and warn them not to aproach. If someone is wearing an apron doesn't make them not a carjacker or other type of criminal.

Sure, and if you misinterpret the legitimate actions of a store employee investigating a possible theft and respond with force, you can expect to go to jail.

Lucky45 wrote: Just for discussion, I think part of your defense it that these stores have PLENTY monitored surveillance cameras in the building and since NOBODY saw your stuff items in your clothing, and you stopped at the cash register and your items were scanned by an employee, then a reasonable person would think it was a false alarm from item not getting demagnetized by cashier. So, stores need to put a perimeter collar on their employees and taze them when they make this error.

Now if someone try to stroll outside the building with items and bypass the register, then I agree then there is reasonable grounds.

Nice try, but that would never fly. Given a busy store and dozens of cameras, it's easy to see how someone could steal something and have it missed by the people monitoring the cameras.

Stephan has it exactly right.

If the alarm goes off and a store employee approaches you - cooperate.

We're the good guys, remember? We should act accordingly.